Share your A2A Tactics

[A.S]

It's the f-15 standard tactic. Usually works :)

 

no the standart 15 tactics VS "i must fly low headon hide behind every flower even he knows my position and pop up and maddog"-guys ..... is promising chocolate but serving stinky fish

 

 

:lol:

[RedTiger]

I was surprised they named that " a soviet anti eagle tactic". If they

are that basic then they would be destroyed fast in the world of lockon.

 

I assume that you're not comparing LOMAC to real life, but this made me stop and think. LOMAC has no consequence of real death and is full of people who have had the privileged to fly 100% perfectly working aircraft and missiles over and over and over and over and over and over. I wonder how many real flight hours Mr. Larry "Cherry" Pitts had in total vs. some of the vhours LOMAC players around here have. IIRC, he was a USMC pilot who was in some sort of exchange program which tells me he may have not had a lot of hours in the F-15. Imagine the scenario of not being able to properly sort bandits due to these tactics, all the while each of you are getting closer to to firing parameters. Even if either side puts the other on their gimbals to reduce closure, you're still heading towards a fight. What do you do? Turn around and try to extend? What if this isn't an option? Take a look at the PK of his missiles...1 out of 3 actually got a kill. So even if you do manage to sort and fire BVR, what if the fight becomes WVR? How are you going to feel betting all your ACM/BFM/DACT training, your plane, your weapons vs. the other guy's where the stakes are coming back alive to the wife and kids back home?

 

I don't think these tactics are so "simple" and negligible. I can't imagine anyone saying "Oh Peshaw! That's the oldest trick in the book!" at this type of thing if it were life and death and probably their first real experience. No disrespect intended Yoda, this just made me think for a moment about how truly unrealistic a flight sim can be, no matter realistic it tries to be.

Edited August 10, 2008 by RedTiger

[159th_Viper]

.....this just made me think for a moment about how truly unrealistic a flight sim can be, no matter realistic it tries to be.

 

Aye - never a truer Word Spoken :)

 

Realism stops at the Airframe, ie modelling/programming of the Avionics, Flight Model, Procedures etc etc...............all the rest is just Make-Believe and IMHO thankfully so.

 

Always appreciate the fact that I can enjoy a Pint moments after an Ejection...........:D

[Frostie]

Yep, because of the complexities and random factors of real life a combat flight sim is going to be either overmodeled or undermodeled, and sometimes both at the sametime.

[GTengineer]

Take a look at the PK of his missiles...1 out of 3 actually got a kill.

 

I thought it was actually 1 out of 4 PK in the video :). He fired 1 heat, 1 aim-7, another heat, and finally on the 4th he got him. It makes me feel better about wasting 4-5 missiles on a bandit in LOMAC though :D

[GGTharos]

It shouldn't. This performance does not reflect the overall performance of those weapons in the gulf war. Sidewinders actually had a Pk of 0.8, and sparrows 0.34 or so. That's including launches in poor parameters.

[RvEYoda]

I assume that you're not comparing LOMAC to real life, but this made me stop and think. LOMAC has no consequence of real death and is full of people who have had the privileged to fly 100% perfectly working aircraft and missiles over and over and over and over and over and over. I wonder how many real flight hours Mr. Larry "Cherry" Pitts had in total vs. some of the vhours LOMAC players around here have. IIRC, he was a USMC pilot who was in some sort of exchange program which tells me he may have not had a lot of hours in the F-15. Imagine the scenario of not being able to properly sort bandits due to these tactics, all the while each of you are getting closer to to firing parameters. Even if either side puts the other on their gimbals to reduce closure, you're still heading towards a fight. What do you do? Turn around and try to extend? What if this isn't an option? Take a look at the PK of his missiles...1 out of 3 actually got a kill. So even if you do manage to sort and fire BVR, what if the fight becomes WVR? How are you going to feel betting all your ACM/BFM/DACT training, your plane, your weapons vs. the other guy's where the stakes are coming back alive to the wife and kids back home?

 

I don't think these tactics are so "simple" and negligible. I can't imagine anyone saying "Oh Peshaw! That's the oldest trick in the book!" at this type of thing if it were life and death and probably their first real experience. No disrespect intended Yoda, this just made me think for a moment about how truly unrealistic a flight sim can be, no matter realistic it tries to be.

 

heh, maybe I was too early to speak :P

My forum avatar says something about what shape I was in that night ...

[Pilotasso]

It shouldn't. This performance does not reflect the overall performance of those weapons in the gulf war. Sidewinders actually had a Pk of 0.8, and sparrows 0.34 or so. That's including launches in poor parameters.

 

I thought it was actually 1 out of 4 PK in the video :). He fired 1 heat, 1 aim-7, another heat, and finally on the 4th he got him. It makes me feel better about wasting 4-5 missiles on a bandit in LOMAC though :D

 

2 factors to take in account:

 

1)the GW conflict Sidwinders had to see their targets againts a hot desert.

2) With the exception of the sparrow we dont use the same missiles in LOMAC. The main missile in LOMAC for f-15 is the AMRAAM. And the Sidwinder is very rarely used in the SIM for having its legs cut off (It cant turn much either).

 

The basis for comparison is very small.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Pilotasso

[Teknetinium]

every single bvr/dogfight I have been reading or watching about, there have always been at least two to four missiles fired to kill a single bandit. same goes for sams whit more powerfull missile and radars.

So I would not take PKs for granted, its like watching a Trailer and saying that the movie is good. :)

Edited August 11, 2008 by Teknetium

[GGTharos]

every single bvr/dogfight I have been reading or watching about,

 

That is because you chose to only watch and read about the bits that look like that. It's like when you posted this dogfights series part where a bunch of missiles miss; but in the rest of the documentary, there's a good number of single shot kills.

 

 

So I would not take PKs for granted, its like watching a Trailer and saying that the movie is good. :)

You were the one watching the trailer. The Pk's are real; taken from real counts of all the real launches of those weapons ... not from one little part of one documentary like you seem to have the propensity for doing. Edited August 11, 2008 by GGTharos

[RedTiger]

I have room for both sides of the great PK debate. The main thing I find interesting is the difference between real PK and how traning is conducted...whatever that difference might be, at any given day, in any number of variable conditions.

[RvEYoda]

Would not be much fun to make a tv series where it showed the fights

where the missiles actually worked.

 

"I picked him up 25 nm miles out, fired amraam and broke off.

When I landed back at base AWACS had credited me with one kill, and everyone was

cheering."

[RedTiger]

Would not be much fun to make a tv series where it showed the fights

where the missiles actually worked.

 

"I picked him up 25 nm miles out, fired amraam and broke off.

When I landed back at base AWACS had credited me with one kill, and everyone was

cheering."

 

This is actually one of my bigger critisisms of that show. I don't think they ever did a good job impressing upon the audience the concept of BVR. The only episode where they ever talked about was the final episode that dealt with fictitious engagnements of the future, the F-22 and beyond.

 

Sometimes I think this is because the name of the show was "Dogfights" and thats what they wanted to focus on. But come to think of it, are there any examples of BVR combat, as we understand it, that they could have shown? I've only ever heard about 2 instances; the F-14s vs. Libyan MiG-23 instance (Aim-7 kill at 14 miles, I think) and that incident from the Balkans with the F-117 that was caught inbetween the F-15 and the MiG-29 (which actually became WVR in terms of the pilot actually being close enough to tally the MiG). Are there any others?

[GGTharos]

No dogfight or BVR fight could be presented without dramatization to the public - unless you want to bore your public. The viewers don't know nor understand how this stuff works, so they have nothing to think about when watching these things.

 

As for BVR combat - there are many examples, both from GF as well as the whole balkan affair - 'splash two' was BVR, though it became WVR by the time the missiles hit.

 

There's a 35nm kill by an Iranian Tomcat against a MiG-25 with an AIM-54 as well, though it isn't officially credited - perhaps due to politics. Allegedly the USN watched this happen on their radars.

 

A lot of shots in GF were barely in parameters - 6nm tailchases with sparrows against Iraqi aircraft fleeing to Iran, for example - this is one part of low Pks.

Another part that can cause a lower Pk in a specific batch of missiles is storage and handling. If you store missiles in a damp place, and moreover, you often captive-carry them on patrols, you're reducing their Pk.

 

If you watch dogfights closely, and pay attention to the fights that should have been BVR, you'll see that they were forced WVR by the following:

 

Enemy maneuver to trash BVR solution, ie. the mentioned MiG-25's breaking into the notch. The USAF pilots waited for better parameters.

Enemy aircraft pulling 'in and out', causing flights of F-15's to switch from one bandit group to another and then back.

 

Contrary to what people seem to keep saying, the Iraqi airforce was not at all incompetent. They may have not been terribly -good-, and their equipment may have been generally outdated by comparison, but those guys knew what they were doing and they were fighting hard.

[RedTiger]

No dogfight or BVR fight could be presented without dramatization to the public - unless you want to bore your public. The viewers don't know nor understand how this stuff works, so they have nothing to think about when watching these things.

 

What about something in a "gee whiz" sorta way, like it boggles the audiences tiny little minds! :D

 

Seriously, you're probably right, but I have explained BVR to friends and family who have watched me play a flight sim. They have actually found it facinating. They either thought that a missile's motor burned for the entire time of flight and had no clue about the complexities the reality causes, or they thought that Vietnam proved that missiles weren't worth the time! :)

 

 

Contrary to what people seem to keep saying, the Iraqi airforce was not at all incompetent. They may have not been terribly -good-, and their equipment may have been generally outdated by comparison, but those guys knew what they were doing and they were fighting hard.

 

Yeah I know. People seem to have this idea that all they did was fly in a straight line to their impending doom. :rolleyes: The did know what they were doing and many of their tactics were sound. I've have heard that there some suspected that there were Soviet pilots flying for them but I've never ever seen that substatiated at all and I personally don't believe it.

[Frostie]

Contrary to what people seem to keep saying, the Iraqi airforce was not at all incompetent. They may have not been terribly -good-, and their equipment may have been generally outdated by comparison, but those guys knew what they were doing and they were fighting hard.

Yeah, they could fly planes and had a general idea of tactics and what to do if the time came, really I shouldn't expect any less from any other airforce, do you? Its not like these guys sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for a war. Now look at the real picture and think Mig-25 going for a merge , Mig-29 not attempting any sort of attack , these guys were inferior pilots in very poor examples of the type of aircraft.

[GGTharos]

I don't think so either; Russians would have likely made the fights much more sporting.

 

Yeah I know. People seem to have this idea that all they did was fly in a straight line to their impending doom. :rolleyes: The did know what they were doing and many of their tactics were sound. I've have heard that there some suspected that there were Soviet pilots flying for them but I've never ever seen that substatiated at all and I personally don't believe it.

[GGTharos]

So what? They got into a WEZ. That's what counts. The real picture is that these guys were a threat. They were treated as a serious threat by the USAF - that they turned out to be easier to defeat than originally expected is largely an issue of morale and SA. The Iraqis DID GET THEMSELVES into engagement ranges. This right there is half the battle, if not more.

 

Despite the fact that they only managed to shoot down their own aircraft, they legitimately presented a 'you don't get to take us for granted' threat. That is the real picture.

 

And, MiG-29 not attempting attack? I'd say getting a lock on an F-15 is pretty much an attempt at an attack. I'd say getting to the merge is the same, too. You seem to have a very strange sense of what is a real threat and what isn't. Are you going to go 'pft' when a guy points a little revolver at you just because you're holding onto a desert eagle? I think not.

 

Yeah, they could fly planes and had a general idea of tactics and what to do if the time came, really I shouldn't expect any less from any other airforce, do you? Its not like these guys sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for a war. Now look at the real picture and think Mig-25 going for a merge , Mig-29 not attempting any sort of attack , these guys were inferior pilots in very poor examples of the type of aircraft.

[X-man]

The Iraqis had no chance...:D

 

[GGTharos]

Uhoh ... look out your window and make sure you leave before the black helicopters arrive! ;)

[RedTiger]

There's a (supposedly) old proverb that says the following:

 

Its not the ability to fight that makes someone dangerous, its their willingness.

 

Who's more dangerous to you, the drunk guy in the bar taking a swing at everyone or the black belt sitting in the corner minding his own business?

[RvETito]

My forum avatar says something about what shape I was in that night ...

 

Yeah comrade, what happened to Garfield? Did you pass to the Dark side already? :D

[RvEYoda]

Yeah comrade, what happened to Garfield? Did you pass to the Dark side already? :D

 

This guy is better than garfield :)