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Stupid Question Anybody else have trouble with a clean, straight takeoff?


Weegie

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I can get the Anton in the air 99% of the time, but it's always a little messy.

 

I've tried various trims and releasing the stick to neutral at 120-150 kph without much percieved difference.

 

Using WOT, 1.4 ATA seems to work best, but I feel more at home using 1.2 ATA.

 

The problems all begin after the srick is released to neutral and the tail lifts, then it seems very sensitive on the rudder. It swings one way I put in a little rudder, not much happens, I put in some more............Boom, massive swing the other way........then it's rinse and repeat until it unsticks usually with the left wing down.

 

Holding it down until around 200 kph results in tyre squeals and bounces.

 

Is there a secret I'm missing, it's easier to take off than say the Spit or Kurfurst but after some practice I can get both of these modules to take off without any drama.

 

Not so the Anton, it takes to the air but it's very rarely pretty or straight

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It sounds like "Take-off Assistance" is ON, have you checked it?

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Thanks for the suggestion but Auto Rudder is Off and TakeOff Assistance is 0

 

No axes conflicts either for pitch, roll & rudder

 

I'm doing something stupid probably. Looking at YouTube the takeoff tutorials seem to be able to takeoff straight, but I get wierd rudder response and left wing dip after the tail comes up

 

I'll see if I can do a track, so as others can perhaps pinpoint my failings, at the moment I usually leave the trim at 0 or sometimes tail heavy to 1 but the difference feels minor

 

 

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Second question , are flying MP or SP sometimes server can force take off assistance.

I can take off in Anton very nice, i don't touch trims for take off.

Second question are you locking tail wheel before take off roll ??

 


Edited by grafspee
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Thanks for the video @grafspee

 

I see that you also use ATA 1.4 when using 1.2 I find it more difficult, opposite of the Spit where I use +4-6 boost and beyond that it's more difficult to control

 

I notice that you also get the left wing dip but not as severe as I experience. It is possible to counter it by using some right aileron when you know it's going to happen which it looks like you apply.

 

As far as SP & MP in short both, mainly fly around in the Aerobatics server as I'm not so into the combat side of things, but get the same thing in SP.

 

Always pull the stick well back then roll forward a little to ensure it locks, although on the early roll it's very predictable the trouble seem to occur when the tail rises then it all goes a bit pear shaped.

 

Perhaps it's just the way it behaves and I just need more practice

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Take off in A8 by the book is 3 point so you aim to lift off all wheels at the same time, it is hard to do, it is ok to lift tail first but you need it hold very close to the ground.

Not like in P-51 or spit when you rise tail first, if you do that in A8 too early it starts to dance a lot hard to keep is straight.

I think this is due to quite long wheel struts, when you rise tail P-51 style, tail travel a lot more and you get this gyroscopic nasty swing to the left.


Edited by grafspee
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46 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Take off in A8 by the book is 3 point so you aim to lift off all wheels at the same time, it is hard to do, it is ok to lift tail first but you need it hold very close to the ground.

Not like in P-51 or spit when you rise tail first, if you do that in A8 too early it starts to dance a lot hard to keep is straight.

I think this is due to quite long wheel struts, when you rise tail P-51 style, tail travel a lot more and you get this gyroscopic nasty swing to the left.

 

Ahh Thank you @grafspee that's a nugget of gold right there, that sounds like where I'm going wrong

 

Very much appreciated, now need to get some more practice in.

 

I was surpised how badly behaved it was in comparison to the Dora

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Ok Think I've got it, still far from perfect but

 

Trim neutral

 

Right rudder 70-80%

 

Stick back and to the right say 10%

 

Use ruddder to stay straight

 

Hold stick back until very late approx 160-170 kph slowly release stick forward to centre but still holding in right roll component, by the time the stick is centred, I'm getting airborne.

 

Still some roll compenent but nowhere near as severe

 

Thanks @grafspee for the words of wisdom made quite an improvement to my take offs

 

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Do you have any curves applied to the rudder? I find a curve around 15-20 helps to add some "damping" to the motion so I'm less likely to over correct. It's not really damping in an engineering sense - just a kludge to work around the lack of tactile feedback from a desktop PC sim.

 

HTH

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37 minutes ago, reece146 said:

Do you have any curves applied to the rudder? I find a curve around 15-20 helps to add some "damping" to the motion so I'm less likely to over correct. It's not really damping in an engineering sense - just a kludge to work around the lack of tactile feedback from a desktop PC sim.

 

HTH

 

Thanks yeah I do now, before I didn't, thanks for the advice, running a 20 curve now. I find the rudder really sensitive and can't understand the behaviour.

 

When it unsticks I'm usually holding the rudder one way then once in the air the slip ball is off to the other side.

 

When I'm trying to get the ball centred it seems to contantly dance around.

 

I know it's an Axis thing but not having a rudder trim makes them a lot more work to fly, combine that with moving the stick to counter I'm always flying with rudder to center the ball then offseting with aileron to hold the thing level. Must have increased pilot fatigue.

 

Surprising when Tank went to such lengths to reduce pilot workload he didn't include a rudder trimmer at the very least.

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20 years ago Flugwerk in Germany made 20 FW190 replicas, mostly A8 spec but a few listed as D9 with inline engines.
 

It’s interesting that out of the 10 reported as being airworthy six are recorded as having had some form of operational incident leading to damage. Just confirms that high powered tail daggers are not easy to fly.


Edited by Mogster
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6 hours ago, Weegie said:

 

I know it's an Axis thing but not having a rudder trim makes them a lot more work to fly, combine that with moving the stick to counter I'm always flying with rudder to center the ball then offseting with aileron to hold the thing level. Must have increased pilot fatigue.

 

Surprising when Tank went to such lengths to reduce pilot workload he didn't include a rudder trimmer at the very least.

 

I'll speculate that in a real airplane, placing one foot in front of the other provides enough opposite force on the rudder without it becoming tiring for the times required. Fighting a spring is different from a counter balanced or counter loaded control surface.

 

I think with a P-51 running all tanks plus bags and flying 8 hours or more the trim on all the axes probably became required equipment.

 

But yeah - almost wish our desktop controllers had "trim" settings independently of what is modelled in sim.


Edited by reece146
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11 hours ago, reece146 said:

 

I'll speculate that in a real airplane, placing one foot in front of the other provides enough opposite force on the rudder without it becoming tiring for the times required. Fighting a spring is different from a counter balanced or counter loaded control surface.

 

I think with a P-51 running all tanks plus bags and flying 8 hours or more the trim on all the axes probably became required equipment.

 

But yeah - almost wish our desktop controllers had "trim" settings independently of what is modelled in sim.

 

 

I hear you and totally agree

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15 hours ago, reece146 said:

 

But yeah - almost wish our desktop controllers had "trim" settings independently of what is modelled in sim.

 

It is easy way around, since german's planes has automatic prop gavernos, at least in my case i have small slider(friction lever) free, so i assign rudder axis to it then in flight i can precise set rudder trim.

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1 hour ago, grafspee said:

It is easy way around, since german's planes has automatic prop gavernos, at least in my case i have small slider(friction lever) free, so i assign rudder axis to it then in flight i can precise set rudder trim.

 

How does that work though, don't you then have 2 controllers onto 1 axis?

 

I haven't done that as I thought it would interfere with my pedals and the rudder would be trying to react to 2 different inputs

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1 hour ago, Weegie said:

 

How does that work though, don't you then have 2 controllers onto 1 axis?

 

I haven't done that as I thought it would interfere with my pedals and the rudder would be trying to react to 2 different inputs

I have but no problem with that. Friction slider on warthog hotas is very resistant to move, so it is not interfering while using rudder pedals.

Remember it works both way, so you need take your foot of rudder pedals, to allow slider to work. If any of this inputs are sending some input noise, this trick wont work.


Edited by grafspee
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2 hours ago, grafspee said:

I have but no problem with that. Friction slider on warthog hotas is very resistant to move, so it is not interfering while using rudder pedals.

Remember it works both way, so you need take your foot of rudder pedals, to allow slider to work. If any of this inputs are sending some input noise, this trick wont work.

 

I'll give that a try @grafspee thanks

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I do it when i'm passing 100kph, waiting too long until 150kph, take note that plane accelerate quite fast when you see 150, 160 is on the way already :), if you still keep full back pressure bird will try to lift off at that point. So i release stick when passing 100kph.

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On 3/8/2021 at 8:38 PM, Weegie said:

Ok Think I've got it, still far from perfect but

 

Trim neutral

 

Right rudder 70-80%

 

Stick back and to the right say 10%

 

Use ruddder to stay straight

 

Hold stick back until very late approx 160-170 kph slowly release stick forward to centre but still holding in right roll component, by the time the stick is centred, I'm getting airborne.

 

Still some roll compenent but nowhere near as severe

 

Thanks @grafspee for the words of wisdom made quite an improvement to my take offs

 


What you're describing is my experiences when still trying to take off at 1.2ata.

Honestly, just shove that throttle forward. At 1.4ata the Anton tracks pretty much straight down the runway with only a few dabs of small rudder corrections needed early on.

At 1.4, I also have no problem getting the tail up, tracking straight and doing a 2-point take off.
 

I assume it's to do with propwash or airflow interaction with the airframe/rudder (or lack of) but 1.2 was hard, more throttle makes it easy.

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1.2 ATA in FW190 comes with reduced rpm as well, so lower ATA and lower rpm gives a lot less power. 1.1 ATA is cruise power so don't expect  that Anton will lift off at 1.2 ATA easy.

It is not the case as in P-51 where you stay at 3000rpm and you can go for 50" take off.


Edited by grafspee

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 It's not the whole story though.. The air that is displaced by the prop together with the prop wash effect play an important role here. As far as I know DCS is not the best simulator regarding these 2 factors..

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All I can tell you is what I experience and I find both methods work

 

I can either push the throttle to the firewall, 1.4 ATA, release the stick at 120 kph then a little back stick around 200kph and unstick, reckon that's the easiest. 

 

Alternatively, I add a lttle nose down trim +1, throttle to 1.2 ATA and hold the stick back until around 160 kph,  again slight back stick at 200 kph and lift.

 

Both work Ok, I take off (nearly) everytime, the thing that doesn't work is low ATA, 1.2-1.3, and release the stick around 100-120 kph, that gets real interesting, real fast. It feels to me there is a delay in rudder reaction when the tail has lifted, countering does nothing then it snaps in the direction of rudder input. Then its a race to attain flying speed before I swerve off the runway.

 

I've only started experimenting with this a bit but I'll see if I can post up a clip or track later

 

Many Thanks to everybody for all the help and the input

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Delay is normal, depends on the plane. Anyway for me D-9 and A-8 act quite similar. I use exactly same technique for take off. 


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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