investigating Patriot Wastes Missiles while Trying to Intercept Other Missiles

[Shadow KT]

The Patriot will fire up to 3 missile, per attempt of intercepting one missile.

In the track you can see 4 CM-802AKGs being fired at a group of ships. The Patriot fires 12 missiles (3 per one incoming). A battery of 8 launchers (4x8=32 missiles) is wasted, before the Patriot can destroy all 4 missiles (3 out of 4 intercepted before running out of ammo).

As far as I've seen, it uses only one missile per attack on aircraft (although from time to time, it will use three)

 

Patriot.trk

[Flappie]

Reproduced.

Here's another track.

Patriot 3 missiles VS 1.trk

[[ED]Ben]

As far as i am aware the patriot can fire multiple missiles at a target, to ensure a kill - will investigate

[GGTharos]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:56 AM, Shadow KT said:

In the track you can see 4 CM-802AKGs being fired at a group of ships. The Patriot fires 12 missiles (3 per one incoming). A battery of 8 launchers (4x8=32 missiles) is wasted, before the Patriot can destroy all 4 missiles (3 out of 4 intercepted before running out of ammo).

 

This is correct vs. TBMs, and either way controlled by doctrine which does not exist in DCS.  The biggest problem here is the amount of missiles needed to hit this non-maneuvering target.

[GGTharos]

20 minutes ago, [ED]Obi said:

As far as i am aware the patriot can fire multiple missiles at a target, to ensure a kill - will investigate

 

You are correct, but there are the following issues:

 

The number of missiles launched depends on doctrine.  Different number of missiles and different sequence is used depending on the type of target, for example:

 1) TBM - Shoot-shoot-shoot-look-(possibly more shooting).   This is 2 PAC-2, 1 PAC-3.

 2) Cruise missile:  Depends on available time to intercept, start with shoot-look-shoot and if not enough time, shoot-shoot-look-(possibly more shooting)

 3) ABT (aircraft):  Same as above.

 

The 'look' above means you wait to verify missile success/failure.

 

The main problem here though is how bad you've made the missiles at hitting anything.   PATRIOTs aren't bad at hitting missiles - they're actually really good (one of the main tests performed is actually PATRIOT shooting down another PATRIOT).

In case of objections:  PATRIOTs were bad at destroying TBM warheads, but they would reliably hit their targets - source:  I have somewhere the 2000's analysis of PATRIOT vs TBM from the US Army, not civilian experts.

 

Coming back to what's 'wrong' with PATRIOT:

1) The miss distance is too large because of the 'CEP' forced on missiles at both low altitudes and basic CEP applied to any altitude.   It's excessive and IMHO poorly implemented:  There should be almost zero miss distance vs. a non-maneuvering target.  The CEP should grow if the target maneuvers, mostly proportional to the normal of the plane of motion of the target as seen in the seeker.   The 'CEP' should then settle some short time after the maneuver is complete.

2) TBM intercept trajectory specifically is bad.   The missile flies PN/APN all the way which is completely incorrect for this application.

3) Low altitude target intercept trajectory is also very poor, and the forced 'CEP' isn't helping.  32 missiles to intercept 4 cruise missiles is an unacceptable result.

 

There is no ABT/ABM mode:  These are important because when PATRIOT is looking for one, it may easily miss the other.   Its capability heavily depends on the mode it is put into - either defending from ballistic missiles or from everything else.

Edited June 28, 2021 by GGTharos

[Shadow KT]

^ This