I was fighting F-14 and Notch doesn't work avoiding Aim-7M. What to do?

[pepin1234]

I don't know what is going on with DCS now days. Notch doesn't make any effect to brake a lock. I was making a loop Notching F-14 radar and I never stop listen the SPO-15 RWR lock warning. the same when Aim-7M was tracking me, Notch make any effect to the F-14 radar.

 

Does RUAF and Russians were wrong inventing maneuvers and way to defeat a tracking lock and Wag and Nick have ordered reinvented the super radars for DCS only? Radar or Aim-7M. What could be wrong here. This is a standard in DCS?  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by pepin1234

[Skysurfer]

You can't notch pulse STT. Let alone against the sky. Try using ground clutter and chaff  

[Breakshot]

Watch your speed, keeping it low <500km/h is gonna improve your chances in the notch.

 

But yes, Aim-7 is way too OP as compared to ER when it comes to notching it... Typical ED BLUEFOR modelling. A 90s missile is shittier than a 70-80s one because its Russian

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, Breakshot said:

Watch your speed, keeping it low <500km/h is gonna improve your chances in the notch.

 

But yes, Aim-7 is way too OP as compared to ER when it comes to notching it... Typical ED BLUEFOR modelling. A 90s missile is shittier than a 70-80s one because its Russian

 

Yes. The 7M/MH are waaaay more advanced than the Alamo that is a simple fact. In DCS it's also partly due to the fact that FC3 radars are way dumbed down and undermodelled. You also can't really compare an AWG-9 with a N001 - a fox 1 will always depend on the radar it is being guided by. And again, kinematically you have every advantage with the ER, it's not even close. Just keep in mind that the Tomcat has various modes and filters up its sleeve to help with maintaining a lock. Get below it, slow down and drop chaff - you 100% will be able to defeat a Sparrow like that. Let alone teh fact that anything but the MH does not even guide past 10nm as of right now. 

[Breakshot]

3 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Yes. The 7M/MH are waaaay more advanced than the Alamo that is a simple fact.

It is? Based on what analysis? and what documentation?

 

Lets not talk about kinematics and launch platform. The way it works in DCS is a dice roll for the ER. Aim 7 however is supposed to have new PN modelling. 

 

EDs priority should be to bring all missiles to parity in this respect.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Breakshot

[pepin1234]

7 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

You can't notch pulse STT. Let alone against the sky. Try using ground clutter and chaff  

did you see in my pictures. I am low level at the moment of the notching with the f-14 radar upper me and very close. Totally ground background and doesnt have any effect. 
 

this F-14 was a human radar operator. They are cheating and 3Th parties have green light to overpower the modules systems, with the management of this game looking the show.

 

please look in my last picture how they are able to track and hit my missile with this unrealistic and overpower pulse STT.

Edited June 2, 2021 by pepin1234

[GGTharos]

37 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

did you see in my pictures. I am low level at the moment of the notching with the f-14 radar upper me and very close. Totally ground background and doesnt have any effect. 
 

this F-14 was a human radar operator. They are cheating and 3Th parties have green light to overpower the modules systems, with the management of this game looking the show.

 

please look in my last picture how they are able to track and hit my missile with this unrealistic and overpower pulse STT.

 

 

A little more analysis is needed.

There are two radars to notch:  The AIM-7M and the AWG-9.   I don't know what the notch values are for the AIM-7M so we have the following possibilities:

 

1) You did not actually enter the notch

2) You did not stay in the notch long enough (the opponent can maneuver to bring you out of it very quickly at close ranges)

3) You notched the AWG-9 but it went into a FLOOD-like mode, illuminating you even if it's not actually tracking (Think Su-27 using IRST to guide the antenna sort of effect, but for FLOOD you must keep the target in the HUD) and you didn't notch the missile (very difficult to do at close ranges)

4) PSTT cannot be notched in the traditional sense, but that makes it very sensitive to ground clutter.   There are techniques to ensure that ground clutter will not cause problems, but  suspect it would be more susceptible to chaff.

 

At the same time, here are some potential issues here:

1) PSTT is great and all but shouldn't work well if you've got solid ground clutter behind you.  I don't know if you do (range gating can be used to deal with the clutter)

2) PSTT is likely not able to guide AIM-7M if it's using CW.  Only 7F or before, so this could be a problem but determining this requires detailed knowledge of the AWG-9 modes and AIM-7M information which may be hard to come by.

 

Finally, no one is cheating.  Cut the BS.  There are issues that need to be fixed.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[pepin1234]

I am talking about Aim-7M doesn’t lose track in any moment. If I get a notch against the aircraft radar how come the missile keep tracking...? What is the signal it receiving at those few seconds...? Moreover... with this overpower simulation we got AA missiles intercepted by this overpower pulse STT. See my last pictures

[GGTharos]

54 minutes ago, Breakshot said:

It is? Based on what analysis? and what documentation?

 

Ok, here it is - nothing I write here is unknown to the community:

 

To begin with the radar, the computational power of the N001 was at best as good as the original APG-63, and the antenna design of the N001 was years behind.

 

The original AIM-7M is an all-digital missile, and the R-27R, despite coming out almost a decade later is analog, a technology ten years older with its saving grace being the monopulse antenna.

The F and H builds of the AIM-7M that followed quickly are slightly more advanced, showing the gains in performance afforded by the reprogrammable capability of this missile.

 

Where the AIM-7 variants lose to the R-27ER definitively is sheer rocket oomph.  Not that I would claim the R-27 is in any way not a threat, but it's not as advanced as the AIM-7.  Maybe this doesn't actually matter though, but we'll not now much about this in terms of IRL.

 

The interesting question which will be difficult to answer here, is how/why do these differences matter?  We might never actually know.

 

Quote

EDs priority should be to bring all missiles to parity in this respect.

 

They already set the ccm_k0 to the same value for both.  As Chizh said, the programming done for the AIM-7 will be moved to the R-27s ... at some point, which is a bit sad that it's not like 'tomorrow'.

 

5 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

I am talking about Aim-7M doesn’t lose track in any moment. If I get a notch against the aircraft radar how come the missile keep tracking...? What is the signal it receiving at those few seconds...? Moreover... with this overpower simulation we got AA missiles intercepted by this overpower pulse STT. See my last pictures

 

You cannot notch PSTT, but you should be able to notch the AIM-7.  Notching the AIM-7 or any missile when it is close is difficult because of geometry and other reasons.  Your speed is a very large factor in this, and you have a choice to make:  Get slower to ensure better notch entry and maintenance, or remain fast and opt to use a last-ditch orthogonal roll to try and evade the missile.

 

If you do notch the radar, DCS simulates for all radars a 3-4 second 'radar memory' during which the missile will continue to guide.  The way this simulation is implemented is a bit of a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

AAMs being intercepted is something that ED is working to deal with, but they have some thinking to do to try and solve it correctly.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[pepin1234]

also making a loop or maneuver in low vertical speed will brake this track for long enough to make a waste that missile on the air,  Doesn’t happen in DCS. We are seeing a imbalance and biased implementation in this simulator and they seem to keep pushing on the same direction without go serious job...

 

GGTHAROS you look like the ambassador of all the western unrealistic over power in this so called simulator. If you don’t mind leave the thread free of partially  arguments please... 

Edited June 2, 2021 by pepin1234

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

also making a loop or maneuver in low vertical speed will brake this track for long enough to make a waste that missile on the air,  Doesn’t happen in DCS. We are seeing a imbalance and biased implementation in this simulator and they seem to keep pushing on the same direction without go serious job...

 

The AIM-7E already had implementations of capability to deal with Split-S/Immelmann and we have documentation to this fact, so I wouldn't consider that doing this fails to break the track a problem.   Of course the devil is in the details; I don't know how much of this development you have been following, but all the capability that the AIM-7 has now will be moved to the R-27, as per Chizh.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[pepin1234]

In Start Wars probably yes...

[GGTharos]

Do you keep responding without reading an understanding or something, pepin?   There's no star wars, there's reality vs. DCS.   DCS does things both better and worse than IRL in various situations for various reasons.

 

Exactly what problem do you have with things as stated?   People have already complained that the R-27 is not being kept up to date with respect to the missile development done for the new module missiles, and ED has said they will move the R-27 to that codebase.   The complaint here is that they're not doing it fast enough.

Other than this, what's the problem?  We can talk about module specific problems WRT F-14, but those are module and not AIM-7 specific (HeatBlur simply copies the ED AIM-7, they don't make any changes to it).

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

5 hours ago, Breakshot said:

 

 

But yes, Aim-7 is way too OP as compared to ER when it comes to notching it... Typical ED BLUEFOR modelling. A 90s missile is shittier than a 70-80s one because its Russian

No. Theres no OP, AIM-7 is absurdly easy to notch, as are all the "BLUE" missiles that are supposedly OP. Your pretty much the only biased guy here. Also, the ER isnt 90s. ER specifically is late 80s but its the same seeker as the R from the early 80s. AIM-7M is mid 80s, MH is actually 90s.

[Coxy_99]

[Breakshot]

17 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

No. Theres no OP, AIM-7 is absurdly easy to notch, as are all the "BLUE" missiles that are supposedly OP. Your pretty much the only biased guy here. Also, the ER isnt 90s. ER specifically is late 80s but its the same seeker as the R from the early 80s. AIM-7M is mid 80s, MH is actually 90s.

Of course I am biased, but not in the way you think. I have no issues with 7s or any BLUEFOR missiles. I have an issue with ED always sticking it to red side when it comes to development since Igor passed away.

 

But now that you brought this up I have seen some ridiculous things with Aim-7s. I have yet to see something like that with ERs, apart from when they miss in the most simplest and best conditions.

 

Here is one for you to explain virtue of Coxy, enjoy! @dundun92 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Breakshot

[GGTharos]

@Coxy_99HoJ?

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[Breakshot]

4 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

HoJ?

Only the targets can confirm this for sure. But the question is, perfect PN with Loft on HOJ from an Aim7? With no range data?

 

Or maybe it was Aim-7ET

[dundun92]

2 minutes ago, Breakshot said:

Only the targets can confirm this for sure. But the question is, perfect PN with Loft on HOJ from an Aim7? With no range data?

 

Or maybe it was Aim-7ET

PN doesnt need range, just LOS rate. The myth that missiles go pure pursuit in HOJ needs to die. The loft thing, that is a reported bug. But the bigger issue is that the AIM-7 shouldnt be lofting here, it should only loft when pitched up; ironically, it hurts its F-Pole

Edited June 2, 2021 by dundun92

[GGTharos]

The missile HoJ processing in DCS is completely independent from the launching aircraft so yes, only those 'cat pilots can confirm, but it's important to know.

 

As for no range data, they were launched with range data in DCS (They always are) but once in HoJ they should be flying pure, not PN and I don't see PN there, only the slow pure turn.  But I could be wrong.

 

This however, is a generic missile problem.  There is a possibility of some other interaction/bug that, as we've seen in previous bugs cause the missile to act as a heat seeker or active missile or something.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[Breakshot]

Just now, dundun92 said:

PN doesnt need range. The myth that missiles go pure pursuit in HOJ needs to die. The loft thing, that is a reported bug. But the bigger issue is that the AIM-7 shouldnt be lofting here, that just hurts its F-Pole

So is the missile OP or not? What are the odds of an unsupported Aim-7 make 2 kills like that? BTW I dont even know for sure whether that was HOJ, isnt the 14 jammer not working that way?

 

If nothing is amiss here apart from the loft then I rest my case... 

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, Breakshot said:

So is the missile OP or not? What are the odds of an unsupported Aim-7 make 2 kills like that? BTW I dont even know for sure whether that was HOJ, isnt the 14 jammer not working that way?

 

If nothing is amiss here apart from the loft then I rest my case... 

 

No, they shouldn't guide unless in HoJ and even then that's an issue because the F-14 should shut down is ECM when not illuminated*.

So the real question here isn't whether this is ok, it's not - the real question is what caused the bug?

 

* There are complex scenarios where they might guide but ... really not our problem and not necessary to simulate.  It's one of those 'if all the stars and planets aligned' things that we shouldn't bother with and would require much deeper RF simulation.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

Just now, Breakshot said:

So is the missile OP or not? What are the odds of an unsupported Aim-7 make 2 kills like that? BTW I dont even know for sure whether that was HOJ, isnt the 14 jammer not working that way?

 

If nothing is amiss here apart from the loft then I rest my case... 

The odds are very high, thats the point behind HOJ. And the F-14 jammer certainly works, it just blinks very quickly, which doesnt stop HOJ. Its also possible that some weird F-14 radar memory mode bug existed, but that has nothing to do with the AIM-7 being OP.

Just now, GGTharos said:

F-14 should shut down is ECM when not illuminated.

Im pretty sure it doesnt in DCS

[GGTharos]

1 minute ago, dundun92 said:

The odds are very high, thats the point behind HOJ. And the F-14 jammer certainly works, it just blinks very quickly, which doesnt stop HOJ. Its also possible that some weird F-14 radar memory mode bug existed, but that has nothing to do with the AIM-7 being OP.

Im pretty sure it doesnt in DCS

 

Typically these jammers will flood angles and range together, thus breaking he lock - literally should not be possible to guide on the target when successful. Again, DCIsm vs IRL, and a deep topic in and of itself.

[Breakshot]

4 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

The odds are very high, thats the point behind HOJ. And the F-14 jammer certainly works, it just blinks very quickly, which doesnt stop HOJ. Its also possible that some weird F-14 radar memory mode bug existed, but that has nothing to do with the AIM-7 being OP.

So HOJ is a PK shot with high odds? I guess best not to turn your jammer on the 14  

 

This is quite recent after memory/Magic INS was fixed, btw

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Breakshot