Recluse Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 So last night, we flew a Helo Hunting mission. Could NOT pick up the Helos on radar (elevation set correctly) even when within Visual Range using AACQ BORESIGHT mode. AIM-9 seeker picked them up just fine as did visual acquisition for GUNS, but I would have thought those spinning rotors would have made a really good radar reflector especially when looking down from above. Bug? Operator Error? or are Helos this hard to pick up? Doesn't seem like ground based SAM radars have a problem and even with ground clutter and problems inherent in Look Down Shoot Down, I would have thought that BORESIGHT AACQ would have managed a lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Generally helos are nice radar reflectors, unless they are one of six with "Ghost Hawk" as a name. However, what speed were the helos flying, in your mission? If they were slow enough, your radar may have rejected those signals as "irrelevant". Dopler radars have a filter, to reject unwanted signal returns from cluttering the display. Generally, you don't want to see lorry trucks on the road if you are looking for enemy fast movers. Similarly if you hunting for enemy transport truck convoys, you may not want that friendly A-7 displayed on your radar display in MTI mode. So check the track file if you can, and look for the helos ground speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recluse Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) I looked at the TRK. They were Mi-8's/ KA-27 at 80 knots indicated at 1500 ft. I was almost co-altitude (~2000 ft) when I put the radar boresight right on the sucker at about 4 miles or with GUNS ACQ . Aspect was pretty close to 0 so it wasn't a BEAM situation. Never saw ANY brick on the radar at any time in TWS... VID, AIM-9X tone.. boom! Along with some decent visual Guns passes But no radar locks. If it was a speed gate, maybe I should have tried GMT radar Edited July 3, 2021 by Recluse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Yea... I don't know enough about radar to figure this out deeper. But I do wonder if 80 knots is maybe too slow, or if such speeds ought to be very reasonable? I'm leaning away from this being a "bug", partly due to the fact the heater could still track it... but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recluse Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rick50 said: Yea... I don't know enough about radar to figure this out deeper. But I do wonder if 80 knots is maybe too slow, or if such speeds ought to be very reasonable? I'm leaning away from this being a "bug", partly due to the fact the heater could still track it... but... Yeah, that is why I posted as a question instead of jumping into the BUG REPORTING forum. Between the reasonable explanations of velocity gate to filter out slower moving traffic, issues with ground clutter (though in my case I was pointing right at it almost co-altitude) it might just be how it works. I seem to recall reading something here about the efficacy of Air to Air radar against helos but I cannot seem to find it. DUH.... I must not have searched very well: Edited July 4, 2021 by Recluse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeck Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 I just experienced this too. Only reason I think it’s a bug is because when I played the mission a second time, I was locking them up easily. First time I had boresight ACM mode selected: Hind was in the circle from 5 miles all the way until it almost went through my windscreen and no lock. No matter the mode, range, angle, etc Started the mission over and this time I was picking them up as usual. Who knows. All I can say is that the “helicopters are hard to pick up” is ridiculous. Hinds have an enormous cross section and Doppler shouldn’t matter when I’m 2 miles away with my radar beam blasting it in boresight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I don't think it's always that difficult for even 1980's fighters to detect helos by radar, I seem to vaguely recall an F-15 engaged... not sure if it was a HIND or Black Hawk, or Hip, but I seem to recall they shot it down with either a Sparrow or AMRAAM. Now, maybe the helo was going full tilt, but even then, I would have thought that a helo going 80 knots would be considered a potential threat to intercept for VID.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcrusty Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 In good'ol days, many OB builds ago, we were able to do this. The lock was shaky but possible. Then again... I used to lock the helos in A/G mode with MavF using HUD and shack/splash them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignition Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 The blades should be very easy to find for a radar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAXsenna Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I don't think it's always that difficult for even 1980's fighters to detect helos by radar, I seem to vaguely recall an F-15 engaged... not sure if it was a HIND or Black Hawk, or Hip, but I seem to recall they shot it down with either a Sparrow or AMRAAM. Now, maybe the helo was going full tilt, but even then, I would have thought that a helo going 80 knots would be considered a potential threat to intercept for VID....Two blackhawks. Some problem with IFF. They even flew past them to visual identify them, where they mistook them for Hinds...Really sad. Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck_Henry Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 In real life, it is stupid easy for a 4th-gen pulse-Doppler radar to pick up a rotary-wing aircraft. It is even impossible for a helicopter or tiltrotor to employ notching against radar since the rotating blades will always create significant differential velocity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 Interesting... so then it would seem to be bug to be corrected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recluse Posted July 6, 2021 Author Share Posted July 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Rick50 said: Interesting... so then it would seem to be bug to be corrected? Yes.. Seems like it was reported back in May.. I guess we wait.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 6:14 PM, Rick50 said: I don't think it's always that difficult for even 1980's fighters to detect helos by radar, I seem to vaguely recall an F-15 engaged... not sure if it was a HIND or Black Hawk, or Hip, but I seem to recall they shot it down with either a Sparrow or AMRAAM. Now, maybe the helo was going full tilt, but even then, I would have thought that a helo going 80 knots would be considered a potential threat to intercept for VID.... Wow... I just realised now how incredibly vague this post was... "so, way back before the invention of the wheel, something happened, not sure what, or when at all, but it definately happened, and is somehow relevant even though I barely remember hearing about it!" LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VDV Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Right now seems radar lock onto AA target is little bit bugget, i have a lot of hard times while trying to lock fkin AA TGTs since 2.7.1....hope ED will fix this soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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