Question on AI and engagement ranges

[captain_dalan]

I've been thinking about asking this question sooner, but work keeps me distracted and by the time i get home i always forget
But recently i had a discussion with a fellow DCS player on his attempts to assign certain planes as AI CAP or Intercept craft and how they, depending on platform sometimes fail to engage at desired or expected ranges. This correlates with my own observations.

Namely, when i don't have the time to fly in DCS, or i'm too tired to do so, i sometimes watch missions created by myself play out on auto-play, that is with all planes controlled by AI. During these sessions i noticed the same thing my friend noticed with his missions. To investigate this further, i made several missions of very simple nature, just 2 planes, separated by 70-80 miles, set to either CAP or fighter sweep, armed with BVR loads, set to joust one against the other, usually starting at either angels 25 or 35.

The results were strange. No matter how i configured the waypoints and conditions for missile employment (max, between max and NEZ, NEZ or so) some planes when controlled by the AI just wouldn't engage, until very close.  As i assume all AI's use the same logic, then my question is, what makes the difference?

Say, the following example. MiG-31, F-14A old, F-14A HB, F-15C, F-16C.
The 31 and the old 14 will launch their missiles from about 50 miles away, as expected. The 15 and the 16 their AMRAAMs from about 40 miles away as expected. But the HB 14 will wait till well inside 30 miles. So, how does the AI decide when to launch? And can we even control that in out missions? I tried in prefab mission, flying the F-14 with AI wingmen, and no matter if order them to engage at 40 or 35 miles, they just flat out refuse to launch till very close.

[Exorcet]

I don't have a definitive answer but I can see that all the planes you're adding are using different missiles. This includes the F-14's as the old AIM-54 is still SFM while the HB AIM-54 is AFM.

 

I think the AI is judging range by missile used, which explains why the F-15 and F-16 shoot at the same range. Load the F-14's and F-15 with Sparrows and they should fire at the same range (unless HB's AIM-7 is unique).

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I don't have a definitive answer but I can see that all the planes you're adding are using different missiles. This includes the F-14's as the old AIM-54 is still SFM while the HB AIM-54 is AFM.

 

I think the AI is judging range by missile used, which explains why the F-15 and F-16 shoot at the same range. Load the F-14's and F-15 with Sparrows and they should fire at the same range (unless HB's AIM-7 is unique).

I'll try that. As for the different missiles, is there a way then, to make them engage at longer ranges? Or change the preferred range based on the missile? Right now there  is very little use for the AFM AIM-54 in AI use, that is for slots not used by human players.

[Exorcet]

That I don't know. I've also noticed the problem with AI AIM-54's as I wanted to fly against them in single player to practice against long range shots, but they AI just wouldn't cooperate.

[Avalanche110]

I have often questioned the AI F-14 engagement ranges, however.

I find the AIM-54C Kill probability extremely low  against fighter size targets. The problem is, regardless of engagement range the adversary starts dumping chaff the second the missile comes off the rail. this is similar to the problem the AIM-120's had prior to their recent update.

I have seen an AI F-14B fire six AIM-54C at a target from 20 miles and every one missed. 

Generally, AI F-14's score most of their kills with Aim-9's once they have fired everything else at the target.

 

I removed the opponents Chaff, and found the Kill probability to be much much higher and somewhere approaching what I would consider "realistic"

[captain_dalan]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:09 AM, Exorcet said:

That I don't know. I've also noticed the problem with AI AIM-54's as I wanted to fly against them in single player to practice against long range shots, but they AI just wouldn't cooperate.

I checked and it's definitely the missiles and not the planes. If given Sparrows, they engage just like any other fighter.  But something about the AI makes it think the AFM Phoenix should have a 20 mile range. Has anyone ever reported this behavior to ED?

[Flappie]

2 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Has anyone ever reported this behavior to ED?

 

You participated in this other thread:

 

To my knowledge, neither ED nor HB acknowledged what you describe. The lack of tracks is not helping.

 

I suggest you create a mission with two different F-14B flights (one only equiped with AIM-7, an another only equiped with AIM-54) opposed to identical enemy flights. Play it, save it as a track and attach it here.

[Exorcet]

My attempt here,

 

Sparrows actually fire first before the AIM-54's. Also it looks like the AI is hesitant to follow up after missing with Phoenixes.

F-14B Missile Ranging.trk

[Flappie]

Many thanks, @Exorcet.

I replayed your track and filmed it. I paused as soon as missiles were being fired. This is what I see:

• AIM-7 Tomcat shoots at a distance of 27 nm
• AIM-54A Tomcat shoots at a distance of 37 nm.

AIM-7 on the left / AIM-54 on the right

 

I'll do another track comparing the different F-14 units using the same AGM-54 missile.

[Exorcet]

21 hours ago, Flappie said:

Many thanks, @Exorcet.

I replayed your track and filmed it. I paused as soon as missiles were being fired. This is what I see:

• AIM-7 Tomcat shoots at a distance of 27 nm
• AIM-54A Tomcat shoots at a distance of 37 nm.

 

Thanks for looking at the track. OK yes, the 54 does get launched further, but 37 miles for the Phoenix is a bit short. I've been able to hit AI fighters from at least 50 miles with it. Also I don't think AI's missiles lofted in my track, which would give them added range.

 

I had set the AI to fire at absolute max range in the options. For the AIM-7 that looks about right, but the AIM-54 had a lot of energy on impact and should have been fired from an even longer distance in my opinion.

[Flappie]

As a RIO and in TWS, I usually shoot my targets from 45 miles to make sure the Phoenix won't miss (and it misses a LOT these days, I don't know why). So I agree the distance could be set higher. As I said, I'll do a full test with different fighters to see what I get.

[captain_dalan]

Good posts guys, i will record some tracks myself as well. I did notice something else this weekend, when i played one of the instant actions. Namely, the AI will engage at longer ranges, but ONLY if ordered to from extreme distance away. In this mission, i actually got the AI to engage when i ordered him to attack from 80 miles away in opposition to the Persian Gulf mission, which starts at 50 miles away, and when ordered the AI closes to Sparrows before it actually engages.
 

I will make some AI VS AI missions and save the tracks later.

[captain_dalan]

Here are my tracks. This is essentially a high altitude CAP, both planes start at angels 35. In the last track i tried changing the AI difficulty level, but that didn't matter. The bandit is clean, no external stores, but CM present. Both AI's set to ACE.
Observations:
1. the F-14 never used the Phoenix, it went directly for the Sparrow shot.
2. The F-15 and the F-14 used the Sparrow from similar ranges, inside 20 nautical miles.
3. When the F-14 carried ONLY Sparrows, it actually engages some 5 nautical miles further out. This maybe related to the airspeed it can achieve with this load.
EDIT: i keep getting unknown server error -200 when i try to upload the tracks!!!!

P.S. Sorry, the problem seams to have fixed itself, here are the tracks!

f-14 uses sparrow instead of phoenix.trk f-14 armed only with sparrow fires further.trk f-15 armed only with sparrow.trk veteran f-14 uses sparrow instead of phoenix.trk

[captain_dalan]

Did ED change something in the meantime? IF so, great job! In this fight the AI wingman actually engages with multiple FOX-3 launches. Yes he does it on orders, but still. Now we only need to se if the AI would engage on its own.....

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by captain_dalan

[captain_dalan]

Nope, tested last night. A lone F-14 ace AI, perched at angels 30, starting from an 80+ nautical mile distance will fail to engage a bandit on its own, until inside 30 nautical miles. So not much has changed