awg 9 tws and ground clutter

[eatthis]

i have MAJOR issues spotting ANYTHING below me around mountains or just any land really, apart from get under badguys what tips are there to help with aquisition?

[Noctrach]

Three "tips"

• Keep MLC on as much as possible when over land
• Fly reasonably co-altitude with expected targets
• Accept that it's a TWS "feature" for the AWG-9 and it will never truly go away

[eatthis]

mlc is a jester thing isnt it? its on by default?
are teh other teen series radars similar for this?

[Noctrach]

MLC is a switch in the RIO seat if that's what you mean, yes. I don't think Jester can actually disable it.

 

The other teen series radars are similar to this, insofar the first generations of their radars go.

The F-14/AWG-9 design stems from the late 60s and was rather a revolutionary step up in terms of radar capabilities. However, it was still entirely analog, which means it's hampered by issues (like those ground returns) that were refined in radar designs for the F-15/16/18, each of which included digital components.

 

In return you get one of the highest detection ranges and an ability to track/engage multiple targets that I don't think even the AN/APG-63 was capable of until the late 80s.

[QuiGon]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:37 PM, eatthis said:

i have MAJOR issues spotting ANYTHING below me around mountains or just any land really, apart from get under badguys what tips are there to help with aquisition?

 

You should have no issues at all spotting aircraft that are flying towards you, even over land and if they are at lower altitude than you. Only aircraft that are either notching (flying perpendicular to you) or flying away from you at roughly the same speed than you are an issue.

[Kula66]

Suggest you setup a test mission; set up 6 targets (nothing as role) at 100 miles from your 14, at different altitudes, from 1000 to 40000, fly toward them, see what you can see and when they appear and disappear. Now repeat with you at different altitudes. Try in RWS and then TWS.

PS> I personally don't play with the radar elevation from the front seat ... it seems horribly broken.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Kula66

[eatthis]

10 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

You should have no issues at all spotting aircraft that are flying towards you, even over land and if they are at lower altitude than you. Only aircraft that are either notching (flying perpendicular to you) or flying away from you at roughly the same speed than you are an issue.

i do, and its not just me either my whole sqn has big problems seeing bandits. we had an engagement last mission where i KNEW there was a red f16 on the deck killiong friendlies. wed come in at 35k at that point and started diving to intercept. tacview shows the red coming straight for me and me going straight at him, he fired an amraam at me from 10 miles (which i evaded by 940 feet!) i then turned cold to let my wingy come in and deal with him. the 16 followed me at a few miles range and then shot an aim9 at my wingy (which he also evaded) then the 3 of us got into a turn fight. at NO point EVER in that whole thing did me or my wingy ever get datalink or radar contact on that bandit! jester was calling his position  but neither of us ever even had eyes on him either we just knew he was somewhere between us at a mile or 2!. a friendly f16 shot him in the end but like i said at no point in the entire aengagement did either of us have ANYTHING on the tid! 
im sure you can guess its pretty hard to fight like that lol. i assume the initial altitude difference really didnt help but after that we were literally pointing at each other and NOTHING

[Kula66]

What radar mode where you in when diving? Aren't TWS & RWS horizon stabilised?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Kula66

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, eatthis said:

i do, and its not just me either my whole sqn has big problems seeing bandits. we had an engagement last mission where i KNEW there was a red f16 on the deck killiong friendlies. wed come in at 35k at that point and started diving to intercept. tacview shows the red coming straight for me and me going straight at him, he fired an amraam at me from 10 miles (which i evaded by 940 feet!) i then turned cold to let my wingy come in and deal with him. the 16 followed me at a few miles range and then shot an aim9 at my wingy (which he also evaded) then the 3 of us got into a turn fight. at NO point EVER in that whole thing did me or my wingy ever get datalink or radar contact on that bandit! jester was calling his position  but neither of us ever even had eyes on him either we just knew he was somewhere between us at a mile or 2!. a friendly f16 shot him in the end but like i said at no point in the entire aengagement did either of us have ANYTHING on the tid! 
im sure you can guess its pretty hard to fight like that lol. i assume the initial altitude difference really didnt help but after that we were literally pointing at each other and NOTHING

 

I would have to take a look at a track file to see what went wrong there.

 

  

38 minutes ago, Kula66 said:

What radar mode where you in when diving? Aren't TWS & RWS horizon stabilised?

 

They are, which means the RIO need to lower the radar elevation manually to detect targets at lower altitudes than your own aircraft. AFAIK Jester doesn't do that on his own and needs to be manually ordered to do so by the pilot.

Edited August 8, 2021 by QuiGon

[Kula66]

I've had no luck using the Jester (a) the wheel is far too clunky to use in a closing fight (even using Viacom) and (b) it seems to mess up the radar from that point onwards. 

 

I think if you are diving on a contact, its time to go PAL IMHO ... if a target it at ground level, I think you need to be down at 17000' to pick them up at 20ish miles in TWS.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Kula66

[DD_Fenrir]

Use the Jester BVR menu option Elevation by Range & Altitude option; works great for me but over sea or flat terrain. The spurious returns from mountainous terrain can interfere with TWS tracks, and in this case I get low and try to ensure that the target is skylined if possible.

 

This is an authentic tactic used by actual F-14 crews; iirc both of the Libyan shoot downs reflect this.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Kula66]

I just wish it had a move a bit higher or move lower option.

Low seems to make it point straight down and the set elevation at range I find far too clunky to use in PvP.
 

The 'authentic' bit is very situational - 14s using AIm-7s against 3rd gen fighters; you were up against 16s with 120s, so a different kettle of fish completely.

[eatthis]

3 hours ago, Kula66 said:

I've had no luck using the Jester (a) the wheel is far too clunky to use in a closing fight (even using Viacom) and (b) it seems to mess up the radar from that point onwards. 

 

I think if you are diving on a contact, its time to go PAL IMHO ... if a target it at ground level, I think you need to be down at 17000' to pick them up at 20ish miles in TWS.

 

it was tws and i did wonder if it was horizon stabilized.
i do use pal alot but i had no real idea where the badguy was and there were 10+ friendlies in the area including 6 f16s lol

i think were gonna switch to low level earlier on missions like that, see how that goes

Edited August 8, 2021 by eatthis

[QuiGon]

18 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Use the Jester BVR menu option Elevation by Range & Altitude option; works great for me but over sea or flat terrain. The spurious returns from mountainous terrain can interfere with TWS tracks, and in this case I get low and try to ensure that the target is skylined if possible.

 

Mountains only cause returns if you fly below them, just like any ground clutter. If you stay above the ground (including mountains) then there will be no spurious returns at all (unless you are in Pulse Search or have the MLC filter off, but that doesn't happen with Jester).

Edited August 9, 2021 by QuiGon

[eatthis]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Mountains only cause returns if you fly below them, just like any ground clutter. If you stay above the ground (including mountains) then there will be no spurious returns at all (unless you are in Pulse Search or have the MLC filter off, but that doesn't happen with Jester).

 

so it should just be a case of get the radar pointing at the badguy?

[QuiGon]

15 minutes ago, eatthis said:

so it should just be a case of get the radar pointing at the badguy?

 

Yes, seems like. Jester is not changing the radar elevation on his own, so you're probably just scanning above the bandit if he's flying at lower altitude and that's why you never detect him.

Edited August 9, 2021 by QuiGon

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Yes, seems like. Jester is not changing the radar elevation on his own, so you're probably just scanning above the bandit if he's flying at lower altitude and that's why you never detect him.

 

 

It's either that, or the F16 was using terrain masking.

 

@eatthis In any case using TWS while going after a bad guy flying low in the mountains is not going to get you anywhere in the F14. Stay high, and fast or switch to another radar mode while searching for him if you follow him down low. If you suspect him of being down low and closing fast, but can't pick him up: Always assume the worst, that he is below your radar cone and act accordingly. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Lurker

[QuiGon]

40 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

@eatthis In any case using TWS while going after a bad guy flying low in the mountains is not going to get you anywhere in the F14. Stay high, and fast or switch to another radar mode while searching for him if you follow him down low. If you suspect him of being down low and closing fast, but can't pick him up: Always assume the worst, that he is below your radar cone and act accordingly. 

 

 

Uhm, which radar mode is he supposed to use instead?

TWS is a pulse doppler mode (just like RWS and PD Search) and thus capable of look down/shoot down, meaning it's the best mode for such a situation. There is no other mode that works better against ground clutter. If the bandit is actually using terrain maskin, meaning he is flying behind a mountain, then no radar mode will detect him as no radar mode is able to scan through a solid mountain...

Edited August 9, 2021 by QuiGon

[Lurker]

39 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

Uhm, which radar mode is he supposed to use instead?

 

 

 

 

Read my answer again, he should switch to another mode (like RWS) and if he follows the bandit down low and suspects him of being close enough then to PLM or VSD-Hi or low and has to maneuver. And yes, if he wants to stay high and fast then definitely use TWS, but if he's not picking anything up then turn back and recommit only after putting significant distance between himself and the bandit. In any kind of engagement SA is everything, and unfortunately any kind of look down situation against a bandit or bogey that's sneaking around in the mountain valleys is going to be sketchy at best. 

[eatthis]

8 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

 

Read my answer again, he should switch to another mode (like RWS) and if he follows the bandit down low and suspects him of being close enough then to PLM or VSD-Hi or low and has to maneuver. And yes, if he wants to stay high and fast then definitely use TWS, but if he's not picking anything up then turn back and recommit only after putting significant distance between himself and the bandit. In any kind of engagement SA is everything, and unfortunately any kind of look down situation against a bandit or bogey that's sneaking around in the mountain valleys is going to be sketchy at best. 

they wernt masking in this instance, they were shooting friendly strike ac at low alt

[captain_dalan]

On 8/8/2021 at 3:07 PM, Kula66 said:

I just wish it had a move a bit higher or move lower option.

Low seems to make it point straight down and the set elevation at range I find far too clunky to use in PvP.
 

The 'authentic' bit is very situational - 14s using AIm-7s against 3rd gen fighters; you were up against 16s with 120s, so a different kettle of fish completely.

Moving up and down through the menu would be slow. Too slow and two clumsy. What works best (with some pre-commit planning) is setting up the antenna elevation in a certain way and then flying accordingly. Then, when the initial conditions no longer apply, just tell Jester to go elevation default. 

I.E. if you plan to go high, you may chose elevation setting that scans everything from right at your level, to however down the antenna can reach in your bar setting. For a 4 bar scan, i think the max delta alt is about 10000ft at 30 miles or so. So if you are at 20000ft, tell Jester to scan 10000ft at 30 miles, you should cover everything from 0ft to 20000ft AT 30 miles range. If you wanna scan closer or go even higher, you need to make the proper math and tell that to jester. Same for the opposite situations, if you in a look-up. You scan above you at some range. 

Now true, it's hard to do all the trigonometry in your head while you fly the plane, but that's where lookup table come in handy. Do the math for the most common conditions you plan to find yourself in and write then down on your kneeboard. If memory serves, you already have some angle chart there. I just don't recall what page they were on. 

[Kula66]

Sorry, not up/down through the menu, but the radar up/down a bit from the pilots seat … and I know this was discussed ad nauseam before, and understand HBs reasoning for not doing it.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Kula66