Nav Question

[SunDown]

Now in the producers notes, its stated that the PVI-800 and the ABRIS are independent of each other. But we know that if we puch up a TGT point on the INS, that is will be displayed on the ABRIS with the option to slew the sensor to that point, so some cross talk is taking place between the systems. **these are assumptions, so feel free to jump in anyone and make a correction**

 

My question is, as I'm flying along from waypoint 3 heading to WP 4, do I have to manually punch up WP 4 on the PVI and also click the "Suspend" button on my ABRIS so they are both point at WP 4 or is the system smart enough that when I advance to another WP from either system that change is global and a systems will be pointing at WP 4.

 

That was probably a poor example, but any thoughts on that?

[therion_prime]

My question is, as I'm flying along from waypoint 3 heading to WP 4, do I have to manually punch up WP 4 on the PVI and also click the "Suspend" button on my ABRIS so they are both point at WP 4 or is the system smart enough that when I advance to another WP from either system that change is global and a systems will be pointing at WP 4.

 

Not that I'm aware of. From what I've seen it's even worse:

Its WP 4 on the Abris but WP 3 on the Pimp-800.

[SunDown]

So with that said, I'm assuming that all your flight directors (heading and altitude) that are displayed on the HUD and HSI are generated from the INS system and not from the ABRIS. Is that the common concensus?I guess its just a good practice to build in some INS update points all along the route. I think it was a great idea to model this aircraft because although it has alot of technology built into the system, its not enough that you dont really lose touch with flying the aircraft. You have to be a pilot first, then a warrior. Unlike the more modern US AH-64 D Longbows where you are living in the Fire Control Radar.I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this bad boy. Even though its going to be tough to get a "TA" on US ground forces and lay the smack down. I'm a M2 Bradley gunner in real life, and we have nightmares about HINDs rolling over the treeline and laying waste to our vehicles....

[GGTharos]

You have to be a pilot first, then a warrior.

 

Yes. It is a combat flight simulation :)

 

 

Unlike the more modern US AH-64 D Longbows where you are living in the Fire Control Radar.

 

Only if you're the gunner ;) The Apache specifically has a pilot dedicated to piloting.

 

I'm a M2 Bradley gunner in real life, and we have nightmares about HINDs rolling over the treeline and laying waste to our vehicles....

 

It is easier in DCS right now than it is in RL ... but that will hopefully change also.

[nemises]

^^ as an interesting side note,

I read a book ("Apache") from a British apache driver using the Mk1 Apache (AH64/D with british Engines and counter measures) in Afghanistan 2007, and on the whole tour he only turned on the FCR once, and that was to use the synthetic aperture to map the ground layout in a sand storm.

 

They used laser guided hellfires, rockets and 30mm exclusively driven by the TADS.

 

I think manual navigation modes and laser guided weaponary are still the norm in this day and age making the KA 50 quite relevant and equivalent to western modern attack helo's.

Edited October 30, 2008 by nemises

[GGTharos]

Definitely not equivalent ... electronically - in terms of sensors, and the actual missiles, the AH-64 in any version is far more sophisticated, giving that helicopter more employment options than the Ka-50.

 

The Ka-50 has its own advantages, mostly in terms of lift, climb rates etc.

 

I think manual navigation modes and laser guided weaponary are still the norm in this day and age making the KA 50 quite relevant and equivalent to western modern attack helo's.

[hews500d]

^^ as an interesting side note,

I read a book ("Apache") from a British apache driver using the Mk1 Apache (AH64/D with british Engines and counter measures) in Afghanistan 2007, and on the whole tour he only turned on the FCR once, and that was to use the synthetic aperture to map the ground layout in a sand storm.

 

They used laser guided hellfires, rockets and 30mm exclusively driven by the TADS.

 

I think manual navigation modes and laser guided weaponary are still the norm in this day and age making the KA 50 quite relevant and equivalent to western modern attack helo's.

 

Any chance you could post the name of the author or the ISBN number? I'd like to read that one. I've searched on Amazon.com and can't find it there. :helpsmilie:

 

Darrell

[SunDown]

I just got back from Afghanistan in May and I seen some AH-64's laying the hammer down on some bad guys. They (the pilots) are cool people. You could talk directly too the pilot on the radio, unlike the Air Force where you had to relay through an Op center, unless you were JTAC.

 

I've got a ton of respect for those guys because they were putting those birds in harms way to help us out.

[Cowboy10uk]

here you go.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apache-Ed-Macy/dp/0007288166

or

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apache-Dawn-Always-Outnumbered-Outgunned/dp/1847442544/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/275-0218288-1374310

 

I've just finished reading them both. Great books, though they do seem to contridict each other, though I guess oppesite squadrons trying to out do each other you will get that.

 

Both highly recommended

[hews500d]

here you go.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apache-Ed-Macy/dp/0007288166

or

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apache-Dawn-Always-Outnumbered-Outgunned/dp/1847442544/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/275-0218288-1374310

 

I've just finished reading them both. Great books, though they do seem to contridict each other, though I guess oppesite squadrons trying to out do each other you will get that.

 

Both highly recommended

 

Thanks! They've been added to my wish list. The wife has been asking me to find a couple books that she can buy me for Christmas, I think I just found them. :pilotfly:

 

Darrell

[EvilBivol-1]

SunDown,

 

Your general understanding is correct. The ABRIS and INS are not integrated and perform all of the necessary navigation calculations independently. Both systems can automatically pick-up consecutive waypoints as you fly the route, but you have to monitor and operate them individually.

 

The ABRIS is integrated into the WCS and datalink systems, so it can provide tactical information.

[Ed Macy]

Hi Guys

I’m not one for posting replies on websites as there are usually nutters out there who just like to goad the likes of me and attempt to bust the security issues we use to protect our identities: UK Attack Pilots.

This site seems pretty grown-up so I’ll try to get with it. If I disappear you should be able to see the reason why in the replies.

Nemises

I only spoke of the radar being used once. It was switched on and tested before every mission and only switched off when safely on the ground. It was used 100% of the time. It gave us amazing situational awareness, was brilliant at detecting targets and invaluable at avoiding a mid-air collisions. Read Air Forces Monthly this June (2 weeks time) and you will see how effective it was. Read the detail in ‘Apache’ carefully and you can see that the cannon, rockets and even a laser guided Hellfire too were fired from the backseat of my Apache by Carl – without the use of TADS whatsoever! Thanks for reading Apache.

Hews500d

See the links at the bottom of this reply.

Cowboy10uk

I know the lads in the other book very well and they’re friends of mine. I can assure you that there is no competition between us – unless we’re in the bar and the pints are stacked up in a boat-race challenge!

The differences are unfortunate but I can assure you that Apache is true and correct, even down to the callsigns.

I’m glad you liked ‘Apache’ as my next book ‘Hellfire’ is due out end of August.

Best

Ed

www.edmacy.com

www.harperplus.com/apache

www.twitter.com/edmacy

[HansRoaming]

Would recommend both Apache and Apache Dawn although because the Blackshark does not have the British Apache countermeasures the Blackshark has to use terrain masking more.

[nemises]

Hi Guys

I’m not one for posting replies on websites as there are usually nutters out there who just like to goad the likes of me and attempt to bust the security issues we use to protect our identities: UK Attack Pilots.

This site seems pretty grown-up so I’ll try to get with it. If I disappear you should be able to see the reason why in the replies.

Nemises

I only spoke of the radar being used once. It was switched on and tested before every mission and only switched off when safely on the ground. It was used 100% of the time. It gave us amazing situational awareness, was brilliant at detecting targets and invaluable at avoiding a mid-air collisions. Read Air Forces Monthly this June (2 weeks time) and you will see how effective it was. Read the detail in ‘Apache’ carefully and you can see that the cannon, rockets and even a laser guided Hellfire too were fired from the backseat of my Apache by Carl – without the use of TADS whatsoever! Thanks for reading Apache.

Hews500d

See the links at the bottom of this reply.

Cowboy10uk

I know the lads in the other book very well and they’re friends of mine. I can assure you that there is no competition between us – unless we’re in the bar and the pints are stacked up in a boat-race challenge!

The differences are unfortunate but I can assure you that Apache is true and correct, even down to the callsigns.

I’m glad you liked ‘Apache’ as my next book ‘Hellfire’ is due out end of August.

Best

Ed

www.edmacy.com

www.harperplus.com/apache

www.twitter.com/edmacy

 

Great!

Well, thanks for the reply Mr Macy , I'll definately have to re-read (is on my list to re-read soon anyways:)) ... thats very intersting about the laser designator beeing driven from the back seat via the longbow.

 

Here's hoping (for our benefit) , that the D / Mk1 gets enough declassifed info out that ED can make a sim for us using it!

 

Will look forward to hellfire too ... Apache is the only real "miliatary history" book that i've throughly enjoyed, and I think thats because of the great technical detail you went into on the Mk1's systems and usage.

Edited April 27, 2009 by nemises

[Frederf]

Now in the producers notes, its stated that the PVI-800 and the ABRIS are independent of each other. But we know that if we puch up a TGT point on the INS, that is will be displayed on the ABRIS with the option to slew the sensor to that point, so some cross talk is taking place between the systems. **these are assumptions, so feel free to jump in anyone and make a correction**

 

My question is, as I'm flying along from waypoint 3 heading to WP 4, do I have to manually punch up WP 4 on the PVI and also click the "Suspend" button on my ABRIS so they are both point at WP 4 or is the system smart enough that when I advance to another WP from either system that change is global and a systems will be pointing at WP 4.

 

That was probably a poor example, but any thoughts on that?

 

Saying that ABRIS is independent of other systems is a bit of a fib. The ABRIS receives plenty of data from other systems but it never outputs any information to those systems. The information travel is only one-way. The reason the "ABRIS is independent" comment is made is because a lot of people ask how ABRIS controls the autopilot functions, which it doesn't.

 

The waypoint advance mechanisms for the PVI and the ABRIS are entirely independent however. The PVI advances through waypoints when using the Route mode only. The ABRIS advances its waypoints due to flyby proximity only.

 

The default ABRIS settings can make it pretty picky and it's not uncommon for the ABRIS to not register a waypoint passed especially if you're using the PVI Route mode's calculated pre-turn (DT) or simply flying manually.

 

The naming of the ABRIS waypoints is completely arbitrary and the default missions (and those made in the editor) only happen to name them numerically. The off-by-one is just a silly consequence of the naming scheme.

[GGTharos]

Saying that ABRIS is independent of other systems is a bit of a fib.

 

No, actually, it is precisely correct - they are completely independent. One can and will work without the other.

 

The ABRIS receives plenty of data from other systems but it never outputs any information to those systems. The information travel is only one-way.

 

This is correct; independence and communication are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

The reason the "ABRIS is independent" comment is made is because a lot of people ask how ABRIS controls the autopilot functions, which it doesn't.

 

While that is a typical reason that response is made, it is not some sort of excuse to call them independent when they aren't. They are completely independent systems.

 

</pedantic>

[Harry Cockpit]

Longbow ah64-d has it own AWACS though right?, the big top on the rotors. You can expose it just above objects to get los on the battlefield. Then acquire targets, hover down behind cover and start firing hell fires in lob mode, over mountains and shit like that. Used to play longbow2.

 

I've actually got the janes flight manuals for these games still... F-15, Longbow, FA-18, USAF. nice books

Edited April 28, 2009 by Harry Cockpit

[bumfire]

Hi Guys

 

I’m not one for posting replies on websites as there are usually nutters out there who just like to goad the likes of me and attempt to bust the security issues we use to protect our identities: UK Attack Pilots.

This site seems pretty grown-up so I’ll try to get with it. If I disappear you should be able to see the reason why in the replies.

 

Nemises

I only spoke of the radar being used once. It was switched on and tested before every mission and only switched off when safely on the ground. It was used 100% of the time. It gave us amazing situational awareness, was brilliant at detecting targets and invaluable at avoiding a mid-air collisions. Read Air Forces Monthly this June (2 weeks time) and you will see how effective it was. Read the detail in ‘Apache’ carefully and you can see that the cannon, rockets and even a laser guided Hellfire too were fired from the backseat of my Apache by Carl – without the use of TADS whatsoever! Thanks for reading Apache.

 

Hews500d

See the links at the bottom of this reply.

 

Cowboy10uk

I know the lads in the other book very well and they’re friends of mine. I can assure you that there is no competition between us – unless we’re in the bar and the pints are stacked up in a boat-race challenge!

 

The differences are unfortunate but I can assure you that Apache is true and correct, even down to the callsigns.

 

I’m glad you liked ‘Apache’ as my next book ‘Hellfire’ is due out end of August.

 

Best

 

Ed

 

www.edmacy.com

www.harperplus.com/apache

www.twitter.com/edmacy

 

Great book Ed, I got it as a gift at Xmas time and thoroughly enjoyed it, will pick up the other one ( Hellfire ) once its released :thumbup:

[Ed Macy]

Great!

Well, thanks for the reply Mr Macy , I'll definately have to re-read (is on my list to re-read soon anyways:)) ... thats very intersting about the laser designator beeing driven from the back seat via the longbow.

 

Here's hoping (for our benefit) , that the D / Mk1 gets enough declassifed info out that ED can make a sim for us using it!

 

Will look forward to hellfire too ... Apache is the only real "miliatary history" book that i've throughly enjoyed, and I think thats because of the great technical detail you went into on the Mk1's systems and usage.

 

Bumfire. Glad you enjoyed it. Have a peep at the link below>

My backseater never used a laser Nemises. My wingman ID’d a target and wanted to do a laser-spot-handover so we could use our Hellfire on it. I was too busy in the front so Carl in the back actioned a missile, brought it into constraints and launched on the wingman’s laser spot whilst I dealt with something else. Boom. Total time for the entire engagement - 30 seconds. The Apache copes with all eventualities and if the crew are up to it, they can work independently on different targets too.

If you enjoyed my book 'Apache' for the technical detail, wait until you read 'Hellfire'. Apache is about Op Glacier, life in the Sqn and 2 very hairy missions. 'Hellfire' is 'Apache in detail' with brand new toe curling missions and an insight into training to become an Attack Pilot.

The link below takes you to the 'only official' distributor of signed copies of my books. I make no money at all from the link below. Any profit goes to the association. I just sign them.

http://www.656squadron.org and look for the shop

or directly:

http://www.656squadron.org/Shop/mini01Cart/Book%20review.htm

Best

 

Ed Macy

 

www.edmacy.com

www.harperplus.com/apache

www.twitter.com/edmacy

[Frederf]

No, actually, it is precisely correct - they are completely independent. One can and will work without the other.

 

This is correct; independence and communication are not mutually exclusive.

 

</pedantic>

 

Ahem, since when are systems which rely on each other for full functionality "independent"? You remove, power off, or sever the link to the INU-- does the feature of seeing the PVI TGT point flash on the ABRIS screen work or not? Hmm, sounds like dependence to me.

 

The ABRIS system (which includes all functionality) is not independent of other systems. If a 20mm round goes through the Shkval will the ABRIS continue with limited functionality? Yes, but that doesn't make the ABRIS fully independent of the Shkval.

 

A pedantic contest with Frederf is like a land offensive against Moscow... inadvisable!

[GGTharos]

Why inadvisable? You just failed it.

 

The ABRIS is fully and completely independent of the PVI, and vice versa. You can destroy one, and the other will continue executing its primary function without missing a heartbeat (or CPU cycle if you prefer): Navigation.

[Frederf]

I know what you're doing; you're using the aviation engineer's definition of "independent systems" which alludes to systems that retain their reasonable primary functionality in the absence of the other system and of course this is true of the ABRIS and pretty much any other system aboard the Ka-50.

 

However, it's a bit crass to rather obviously ignore my previously-stated admitted appeal to the literal and complete definition of "independent" which strictly requires any and all functionality to not depend on another system. The PVI requires the ABRIS to utilize its feature of being able to display TGT point positions graphically for example.

 

At the end of the day pseudo-angry logical argument is fun. :)