Transitioning into jet dogfighting

[Dermax1]

Hi all, first post. To start off with the obligatory background, I've been flying flight sims for almost 30 years now, stretching back to Dynamix Red Baron and A-10 Tank Killer. I've logged a lot of hours, but almost exclusively in WWI and WWII sims. The last jet sim I flew was the old 1990 Mig-29 Fulcrum game. I took the DCS plunge a few months ago with the F/A-18 Hornet, upgraded my stick and throttle, and jumped right in.

 

I love the study aspect of DCS, I have the manual on my phone and printed out. I've got Chuck's Guides stickied, watched way too many hours of YouTube, and did the training missions over and over until I could quote Wags word for word. I feel pretty confident with the theory and operation. Then I tried Dogfighting missions and failed, over and over and over again. In 2v2 I finally managed to lock someone up only to realize as I "Fox 2'd" that it was blue on blue. Everything that I knew about sim dogfighting seemed to go out the window in the face of heat seeking missiles, BVR, etc. I kind of feel like a man out of time! "Get close, aim well, and the man falls" isn't working for me like it did in a Fokker Dr I!

 

I really enjoyed ground attack, to the point where I bought the A-10C module and haven't looked back. But I spent $80 and there are so many cool campaigns out for the Hornet that I really do want to pick it back up and figure out air to air. I got a copy of Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. I made an account here. I think I'll be able to get the theory - but it's the practice that I need help with.

 

So many missions are "Test your skills against the best". I don't want that, I don't have any skills! Could anyone recommend a mission or campaign or anything that moves from something like drones, to non-maneuvering targets, to maneuvering targets, to armed and fighting bandits?

 

As a bonus question, does anyone have tips, recommendations, etc. on dogfighting in a Hornet (or a jet in general). I can't seem to turn fight without stalling, boom and zoom just lets the enemy slide on behind me with a weapon that can reach 5 to 20 miles. The only dogfight mission I passed was dropping to the deck and skimming the terrain until the AI flew into a mountain! There has to be something I learned in 30 years of WWI and WWII sims that translates over to jets. 

 

Thanks for any suggestions you can give and I look forward to being part of the DCS community.

[Hulkbust44]

Hi all, first post. To start off with the obligatory background, I've been flying flight sims for almost 30 years now, stretching back to Dynamix Red Baron and A-10 Tank Killer. I've logged a lot of hours, but almost exclusively in WWI and WWII sims. The last jet sim I flew was the old 1990 Mig-29 Fulcrum game. I took the DCS plunge a few months ago with the F/A-18 Hornet, upgraded my stick and throttle, and jumped right in.
 
I love the study aspect of DCS, I have the manual on my phone and printed out. I've got Chuck's Guides stickied, watched way too many hours of YouTube, and did the training missions over and over until I could quote Wags word for word. I feel pretty confident with the theory and operation. Then I tried Dogfighting missions and failed, over and over and over again. In 2v2 I finally managed to lock someone up only to realize as I "Fox 2'd" that it was blue on blue. Everything that I knew about sim dogfighting seemed to go out the window in the face of heat seeking missiles, BVR, etc. I kind of feel like a man out of time! "Get close, aim well, and the man falls" isn't working for me like it did in a Fokker Dr I!
 
I really enjoyed ground attack, to the point where I bought the A-10C module and haven't looked back. But I spent $80 and there are so many cool campaigns out for the Hornet that I really do want to pick it back up and figure out air to air. I got a copy of Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. I made an account here. I think I'll be able to get the theory - but it's the practice that I need help with.
 
So many missions are "Test your skills against the best". I don't want that, I don't have any skills! Could anyone recommend a mission or campaign or anything that moves from something like drones, to non-maneuvering targets, to maneuvering targets, to armed and fighting bandits?
 
As a bonus question, does anyone have tips, recommendations, etc. on dogfighting in a Hornet (or a jet in general). I can't seem to turn fight without stalling, boom and zoom just lets the enemy slide on behind me with a weapon that can reach 5 to 20 miles. The only dogfight mission I passed was dropping to the deck and skimming the terrain until the AI flew into a mountain! There has to be something I learned in 30 years of WWI and WWII sims that translates over to jets. 
 
Thanks for any suggestions you can give and I look forward to being part of the DCS community.

So for BFM in the Hornet your average corner speed is 360kts for a clean jet. Pull below that and you will be behind the power curve, gotta unload and get knots back. The Hornet is an excellent AoA 1C fighter, and one of the best 2C fighters. You just need to know when to transition. "Boom and zoom" dosen't work anymore in the age of modern BFM. The aircraft have the ability to regain energy incredibly quickly by comparison to the Warbirds. Having altitude is always an advantage, but you need to learn how to use it with your aircraft. The Hornet LOVES the descending spiral or scissors.

Modern BFM is like a bayonet fight, there is no running as the enemy most likely has ammunition remaining in the chamber. In the air, those are the missiles. Unless you know the enemy only has the bayonet, you can't run.

For what it's worth, I learned BFM initially in the Hornet, then perfected the basic technique in the 109. Coming back to the Hornet, my BFM was much better.

Mobius708

[SharpeXB]

This is a good channel here:

 

[Brass2-1]

One aspect to the Hornet is that the FCS almost won’t allow you to depart the jet, meaning it’s easy to harshly over control the stick. Like any fighter, the basic principle of managing your G and AoA still apply-despite the fact that the jet won’t allow you to over-G or depart. 
The high-Alpha capability of the Hornet should ONLY be used for “cashing in” to scoop a shot, as the jet bleeds energy incredibly quickly at high AoA. There are situations, such as pointing the nose that last little bit for a Fox-2 or gun shot where the Alpha will work for you-but in general you must guard against it. 
 

[AKRocco]

I started out the same way, went from years of WW2 to DCS. Personally I found the bfm to be similar in a hornet to ww2 aircraft, but needing more precision. What carried over for me were the visual cues, understanding the fight geometry, gunnery, recognizing overshoots, scissors, 1c vs 2c fights, difference in energy states (though I had to relearn the cues for that). Pretty much all bfm basics haven't changed in 100 years, just the speed and altitude where they happen. what was new to me was the importance of maintaining that right corner speed, operating the avionics and countermeasures, breaking the habit of using some ww2 specific tricks that don't work with jets, and needing to react to cues faster than in ww2 sims. I struggle the most in BVR engagements, missile evasion, that kind of thing, because there is no analogue in ww2. boom and zoom only works if it's guns only/they are much slower/underpowered/don't know you're there, and you break off before you get in front of them. There's a saying for the hornet, "go up to blow up". the hornet doesn't do well in the vertical in most situations. against most fighters downhill is the way to go. In a fox 2 environment you definitely can't run. pretty much any aircraft in the game will be able to get nose on and fire before you get out of range. best bet there is get your nose on them before they get nose on you (I know, not super helpful), or at least keep turning so they can't get nose on and wait for them to make a mistake.

 

As for 2v2, with a human wingman communication helps a lot to avoid blue on blue. with AI best advice I can give is always keep an eye on where they are. there may be better ways I don't know about. I don't really know the inner workings of the iff.

 

The missions that helped me were the single missions for the hornet, the 1v1 bfm against the su-30 then the mig-21, moving up to 2v2. and for fox 2 the weapons qualification. I created a few of my own missions that helped a lot as well. Don't be afraid to jump in the mission editor and create your own setups for air to air and air to ground. you can control the opponents skill, relative position, loadouts, and even make them ignore you if you like. Just drop two fighters near each other, make one red and the other client, and go from there. Fighting AI will get you the basics but it is a huge jump going from AI opponents to human ones, it pretty much felt like starting from the beginning again.

[Brass2-1]

Adding onto @AKRocco’s post,  I have several “target range” missions created. One is primarily a Fox-3 arena; my jet is set to unlimited weapons and fuel. It takes 30 minutes at times to complete as you’re chasing bandits all over the sky in Nevada. The entire purpose is locating them via radar and intercepting to Fox-3 range. 
 

Likewise, I have a similar mission over Caucasus with 20+ armed targets, ranging from SU-25’s with guns to Mig-21’s with Atolls to SU-27’s that are guns only. 
the experience here is much more BFM-focused, as I try to match my capability to the enemy-guns vs guns. 
Again, same unlimited weapons and fuel setting. On this one I fly with two 9X’s, two 9m’s, and guns. 

[Jazlizard]

Care to link the missions?