ship "La Combattante IIa" does not appear on RWR

[twistking]

The newly added ship "La Combattante IIa" does not appear on RWR (tested in A-10c II and F-5).

In the mission editor the unit has options for "red" and "green" combat state, which in dcs refers to radar acivity. Also the 3d model seems to have at least some sort of AA EWR (could be anti-ship also. I'm not an expert here...)

Also i'm quite confident that the multi-purpose gun should be radar guided in it's anti-aircraft role...

 

Please correct me, if i'm wrong.

 

Thanks.

 

*edit* i'm on stable branch

Edited August 31, 2021 by twistking

[Northstar98]

On 8/31/2021 at 3:24 PM, twistking said:

The newly added ship "La Combattante IIa" does not appear on RWR (tested in A-10c II and F-5).

In the mission editor the unit has options for "red" and "green" combat state, which in dcs refers to radar acivity. Also the 3d model seems to have at least some sort of AA EWR (could be anti-ship also. I'm not an expert here...)

 

The vessels have 3 RADAR systems available:

• TRS 3035 Triton-G - this is the parabolic antenna on the top of the mast, it's an IEEE C-band/NATO: G-band surface-search and air search RADAR (according to this it should even be able to detect missiles)
• 3RM-20 - this is the slotted waveguide antenna a little further down the mast, it's an IEEE X-band/NATO: I-band surface-search and navigation RADAR.
• TRS 3201 Castor II - this is the pulse-doppler FCR mounted on top of the bridge, once again it's IEEE X-band/NATO: I-band, and it's used to guide the Oto Melara 76/62 Compact in both the surface-to-surface and surface-to-air roles. I believe this RADAR is also used as the FCR on the Croatale SAM system, so it should be able to track airborne targets. I think this also has an EO system, but unsure if this can be used for tracking.

It should be said that in DCS, none of the naval guns have any AA capability, and they will only fire at surface targets; only the Bofors 40mm/70 on the stern engages aircraft.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Northstar98
corrected RADARs: TRS 3033 Triton-S -> TRS 3035 Triton-G, TRS 3320 Pollux -> TRS 3201 Castor II

[twistking]

@Northstar98 thanks for the profound information.

 

Are you sure, that the TRS3320 only guides the Oto Melara and that the Bofors is optically aimed only?

 

In that case, one could indeed argue that the 3033 is simply "not in use" in DCS, however it is still spinning on the 3d model. So either the 3033 should not spin, or it should show up on RWR...

[Silver_Dragon]

Actually any ship dont use your medium and large cannons vs aircrafts on AAA role. The FC radars has only use on sea / ground cannon fire, no on Anti-Air fire. Other point has ED has none implement VT or more advanced fuzes vs aircrafts, only a time fuze.

[Northstar98]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:40 PM, twistking said:

@Northstar98 thanks for the profound information.

 

Are you sure, that the TRS3320 only guides the Oto Melara and that the Bofors is optically aimed only?

 

Fairly sure, though the Bofors can also be optically aimed via the "Panda" optical tracking system, there are 2 of them, and I'm fairly sure they are the 2 chairs above and aft of the bridge, these are non-functional though and aren't defined (or even animated).

 

The Bofors can also be locally controlled from the mount, which is presumably what DCS does.

 

On 9/1/2021 at 2:40 PM, twistking said:

In that case, one could indeed argue that the 3033 is simply "not in use" in DCS, however it is still spinning on the 3d model. So either the 3033 should not spin, or it should show up on RWR...

 

That's actually the same for tonnes of ships - many of their RADARS are wholly non-functional eye candy, including the AN/SPS-48E NTU and AN/SPS-49(V)5 NTU of the supercarrier.

 

In any case here's what the sensors definition turns up on the La Combattante IIa:

 

GT.Sensors = {  OPTIC = {"long-range naval optics", "long-range naval LLTV"},
				RADAR = {"molniya search radar"}
            };

 

"long-range naval optics" and "long-range naval LLTV" are completely generic, pretty much all vessels have it (the other being long-range naval FLIR), it's not specific to anything, it doesn't even account for generation.

 

IIRC (they've hidden the .lua that defined it), the "molniya search radar" refers to a relatively short-ranged surface search RADAR that's defined for the Pr. 1241.1M/1241.1MR [NATO: "Tarantul III"], my guess is that it's used to define the Kivach surface-search/navigation RADAR.

 

So, in other words, none of the La Combatante IIa's actual sensors are modelled at all, and at best only the 3RM-20 surface-search/navigation RADAR has a stand-in for it; the TRS 3035 and 3201 aren't present at all, neither are the Panda optical directors nor the Racal Cutlass B1 ESM system or the Telegon-6 HF/DF system (though no ship in DCS has any form of ELINT/ESM/RWR/MAWS).

 

In general though everything ship related in DCS, apart from graphics (in a few cases) is very lacklustre, I could write a novel on each aspect, but the bottom line is that it's incredibly crude, incredibly simplistic, and leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Northstar98
corrected RADARs: TRS 3033 Triton-S -> TRS 3035 Triton-G, TRS 3320 Pollux -> TRS 3201 Castor II

[twistking]

@Northstar98 ok. thanks again. funnily enough the "molnya" from which the combattante inherited its lua radar definition, does indeed show up on the rwr.

 

well, it still seems that this is a bug then. i understand that radar modeling for ships in dcs is pretty basic, but there is no reason why the combattante does not show up on rwr. granted that the radar is not used for gun laying, it should still show up as search radar - at least when the ship is set to "red" state for radar readiness.

 

@BIGNEWY can you forward this bug report, or whatever magic you do to get things fixed?! thanks.

 

*edit* as i mentioned above. my findings are from stable branch

Edited September 1, 2021 by twistking

[Northstar98]

5 minutes ago, twistking said:

@Northstar98 ok. thanks again. funnily enough the "molnya" from which the combattante inherited its lua radar definition, does indeed show up on the rwr.

 

In DCS though, the "molniya" uses its MR-123 RADAR for air-search, it's defined as something else (I remember it being "vympel tracker" or something) though the animation doesn't reflect that. Again, they've hidden the .lua files, so I can't inspect them.

 

I've no idea how RWRs in DCS are able to differentiate the molniya, given that plenty of other ship classes feature the exact same RADAR.

 

5 minutes ago, twistking said:

well, it still seems that this is a bug then. i understand that radar modeling for ships in dcs is pretty basic, but there is no reason why the combattante does not show up on rwr.

 

Like I said though, the only RADAR with air search isn't defined at all, neither is the FCR. They'd have to define it first (and they'll probably copy and paste the definition from a completely different RADAR, like they did with the 3RM-20).

 

Unless they make it show up on RWR when there isn't actually a RADAR present, if that makes any sense.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Northstar98

[twistking]

12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Unless they make it show up on RWR when there isn't actually a RADAR present, if that makes any sense.

 

I think the course of action should be to firstly add a EWR type radar as stand-in for the 3033 in lua and to make sure that it shows up correctly on the RWR.

The irony of it would be, that the radar would only be a liability for the ship, as it gives away it's position without a benefit, since it cannot be used for gun laying and since the AI can not benefit from the theoretical increase in SA. I'd argue that it's still "more correct" to have the radar properly defined even with all the shortcomings.

[Silver_Dragon]

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

In DCS though, the "molniya" uses its MR-123 RADAR for air-search, it's defined as something else (I remember it being "vympel tracker" or something) though the animation doesn't reflect that. Again, they've hidden the .lua files, so I can't inspect them.

 

I've no idea how RWRs in DCS are able to differentiate the molniya, given that plenty of other ship classes feature the exact same RADAR.

 

 

Like I said though, the only RADAR with air search isn't defined at all, neither is the FCR. They'd have to define it first (and they'll probably copy and paste the definition from a completely different RADAR, like they did with the 3RM-20).

 

Unless they make it show up on RWR when there isn't actually a RADAR present, if that makes any sense.

 

 

ED need refactorize and add all missing radars on surface boats, has many ships using "generic" radars without propper funtionality.

[Northstar98]

32 minutes ago, twistking said:

I think the course of action should be to firstly add a EWR type radar as stand-in for the 3033 in lua and to make sure that it shows up correctly on the RWR.

The irony of it would be, that the radar would only be a liability for the ship, as it gives away it's position without a benefit, since it cannot be used for gun laying and since the AI can not benefit from the theoretical increase in SA. I'd argue that it's still "more correct" to have the radar properly defined even with all the shortcomings.

 

We're getting out of scope for this thread here but maybe a good idea would be to have EMCON settings for ships (similar to the 'Radar using') in the advanced waypoint actions, where we can tell ships to turn on/off RADARs individually.

 

IRL they'd probably use it in the hope of finding anti-ship missiles, to then launch countermeasures, or for aircraft and ships to provide a bearing for the manually operated Panda optical directors, which can be used to direct the aft 40mm/L70 gun. None of this however is possible in DCS, the RADAR isn't defined, countermeasures aren't functional at all, and neither are the Panda optical directors.