Q for Alfa and the Flankerheads - Su33 roles?

[britgliderpilot]

Heh, Alfa and the Flankerheads . . . . . sounds like an 80's band :P

 

 

Anyway - I'm getting interested in the idea of realistic use of the Su33 for some fun missions. Any knowledge or "informed speculation" would be greatly appreciated . . . . Alfa, SwingKid, I guess you guys are well placed to give a bit of both :)

 

For the purpose of this thread, Russia has plenty of funding for the use of the Kuz and the Su33, but the Su33 only has the capabilities that it does in Lomac.

 

 

How would the Su33 be used in a Cold War scenario?

 

What would it be shooting down - missiles/aircraft, and what types?

 

Would it be flying CAP forewarned, or would it be a rapid reaction launch to incoming aircraft/missiles?

 

Any guesses about numbers of aircraft in a flight?

 

Would GCI be provided by a sea-based platform - and on a related note, is ship-to-Sukhoi datalink a feature we should be asking from ED in the future?

 

What other ships would most likely be in a group with the Kuz - and how many of them are in Lomac or the 279KIAP mod?

 

 

Any information on that would be greatly appreciated :)

 

 

In other uses - would it be possible to see use of the Su33 as an A2G aircraft in a semi-realistic scenario?

 

Peacekeeping missions, perhaps? No-fly-zone CAPs and UN requested airstrikes?

 

 

Alfa, feel free to point out any other obvious roles that Russia would use the Su33 in . . . . . thanks for any input :)

[GGTharos]

Here's some limited info that I can offer ...

 

The Su-33 is meant to defend the Kuz and submarine fleet from enemy ASW/AS operations, so it would likely be capping already, ready to shoot down cruise missiles and incoming aircraft, typically P3's, S3's, helis and carrier borne things such as F-14 and F/A-18.

 

Missile types to shoto at would include things liek Sea Lances (no longer deployed I think) tomahawks and harpoons, as well as possibly exocets.

 

At the same time the sub fleet would be launching their own supersonic cruise missiles at enemy surface groups.

 

FOr this reason I don't see the Su-33 doing any AG work at /all/. They would let Su-27S handle this role assuming a flanker isntead of a frogfoot was used for this, since they have more S-27S and there's no Su-33 replacement on the horizont, so you may as well keep them from unecessary harm.

[britgliderpilot]

Good stuff, thanks.

 

 

Now to clarify this bit:

 

FOr this reason I don't see the Su-33 doing any AG work at /all/. They would let Su-27S handle this role assuming a flanker isntead of a frogfoot was used for this, since they have more S-27S and there's no Su-33 replacement on the horizont, so you may as well keep them from unecessary harm.

 

Accepting that the A2G side of the Su33 wouldn't be used in a Cold War scenario - what about peacekeeping ops in this new age where the Russians are our friends?

 

Yes, a Frogfoot would be better at it - but what if . . . (I love speculation) . . . the Kuz could get there faster and be closer than a Frog-supporting runway?

 

I'd imagine there are places that Russia could offer assistance that a Frog can't easily get to. Now the Crimean isn't a good place to build such a mission, obviously . . . . . just in theory . . .

 

 

Su33 replacements on the horizon - the Su27KUB's are new build, aren't they?

Some places I've seen have suggested replacing the Su33 with them rather than upgrading the Su33 to a similar level of capability.

Not particularly relevant to the question, though.

[GGTharos]

I don't think they'd use the 33's for this at all if they could fly a non-naval flanker over to do it ... I think the 33 would be used for a2g only in very extreme circumsances, and more liekly to bomb surfaced subs than anything. In a peacekeeping scenario I again see a 'regular' flanker doing the job instead, but of course I could be wrong. I guess if they really did have nothing else and they had to do it right then and there they would.

 

As for the latter, I guess that's for Alfa to answer :D That's more or less where my ability to speculate based on what I know ends :)

[Kula66]

I thought generally the Soviet surface fleets primary role was defence of the SSBN bastion (Delta 4s and Typhoons hiding at the edge of the ice pack, North of Murmansk and in the Far East Sea of Something) ... so the Kuz and 33s would protect other surface units, Bear Fs and SSNs in the Barent Sea ... fighting off the US Atlantic Fleet as they moved in to attack Naval forces around Murmansk and attempt to sink a few SSBNs ...

 

James

[Trident]

Re: Q for Alfa and the Flankerheads - Su33 roles?

 

How would the Su33 be used in a Cold War scenario?

 

Protecting the Kuznetsov and other assets guarding the SSBN patrol zones from aerial attack, like Kula said.

 

What would it be shooting down - missiles/aircraft, and what types?

 

Whatever NATO threw its way: P-3's, S-3's, Hornets, Tomcats, F-16's (Norway), Harpoons, Tomahawks... Considering that a Cold War scenario would most likely see the Kuz patroling in the Arctic there are however some encouters that are pretty unlikely for geographical reasons (Italian Tornados, or something like that ;) )

 

Would it be flying CAP forewarned, or would it be a rapid reaction launch to incoming aircraft/missiles?

 

Probably CAP, although this is not a given, since the Soviet navy did not have carrier-borne AEW aircraft.

 

Would GCI be provided by a sea-based platform - and on a related note, is ship-to-Sukhoi datalink a feature we should be asking from ED in the future?

 

Yes to both, AFAIK :) The large phased arrays on the carrier were obviously intended to function as GCI radars. I think they aren't used nowadays due to (software?) problems, but as the Ka-31 AEW helo was only developed later and for export the Soviets would have had to press them into service back in the day.

 

What other ships would most likely be in a group with the Kuz - and how many of them are in Lomac or the 279KIAP mod?

 

Most ships are available with the mod installed, however the very important Udaloy ASW and Sovremenny ASuW destroyers are absent.

[Caretaker]

Aaah the good old 80s...

 

 

(sorry but I needed some senseless creative relief today ;))

[VapoR]

LMAO!!!!

[britgliderpilot]

Aaah the good old 80s...

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/_Caretaker_/images/aatfh.jpg

 

(sorry but I needed some senseless creative relief today ;))

 

 

:lol:

 

 

Saved, will whip this out again for those moments when JJ is needed to settle the argument :P

 

If only we could get a spotlight in that shape to shine onto the clouds . . . .

[Alfa]

Hi Britglider,

 

Heh, Alfa and the Flankerheads . . . . . sounds like an 80's band :P

 

LOL....

 

For the purpose of this thread, Russia has plenty of funding for the use of the Kuz and the Su33, but the Su33 only has the capabilities that it does in Lomac.

 

How would the Su33 be used in a Cold War scenario?

 

Well when you say a "Cold war scenario", one thing to consider, is that the Soviet Union planned for something much more than what is currently the situation with the aviation cruisers in the Russian navy ;) . But if we stick with the Admiral Kuznetsov, the first thing to look at is not the Su-33 itself, but the ship from which it is operated.

 

The aviation cruisers were designed to operate in support of the submarine forces on the Atlantic Ocean by creating "safe havens" for those - clearing an area of operation for all enemy surface, subsurface and air activity. For this purpose the ships were designed with equal emphasis on ASW, AsuW and AAW capabilities - in the case of the Pr 1143.5 and 1143.6 designs("Admiral Kuznetsov" and unfinished "Varyag" respectively) in the following ways:

 

Anti Submarine Warfare,

 

For anti submarine warfare, the Kuznetsov is equipped with a huge hull mounted sonar, and up to two squadrons of the Ka-27PL helicopter, which is the dedicated anti submarine version of the Ka-27. The procedure would be to detect enemy submarine activity over a large distance via the onboard sonar, and then send out "killer groups" of Ka-27PLs to determine the exact location with dipping sonars and sonobuys and ultimately engage with torpedoes and dept charges.

 

For self protection the ship is equipped with the Udav-1 anti torpedo protection system, which is an automated rocket launcher system linked to the sonar and capable of firing several types of guided and unguided projectiles - to mine the path of incoming torpedoes, divert them(decoys) or directly engage them (guided projectiles).

 

Anti Surface Warfare,

 

To combat enemy ASW surface assets - individual ASW ships or entire carrier groups, the Kuznetsov is equipped with a phased array radar system called "Mars-Passat"(as mentioned by others, there is some doubt as to whether this system ever became operational) and the P-700(3M-45) "Granit" missile system(12 missiles). The Granit missile is a supersonic ramjet powered cruise missile with a range in excess of 500km. It weighs some 7 tons and carry either a 750 kg HE- or 500kt nuclear warhead. Target acquisition and midcourse guidance is provided via satellite, target selection process is carried out by the missile´s onboard AI target recognition system, while terminal homing is done via onboard active radar and IR seekers. In a "wolfpack" of in-flight missiles, one missile can act as "leader" and uplink target data/priority to the others - e.g. at some 50km or so to target area, the lead missile will seek to higher altitude to acquire targets via onboard active radar seeker, prioritise them and then transmit this data to the other missiles which then can remain at sea skimming altitude to take full advantage of radio horizon.

 

Anti air warfare,

 

To protect friendly submarines and the surface group itself from aerial attacks, the Kuznetsov carries a squadron of Su-33 airsuperiority fighters and two Ka-31 early warning helicopters. The Su-33s would fly CAPs at the outer perimeter of the surface group and receive 360 degree surveillance support from the Ka-31 - mainly to intercept enemy long range ASW aircraft such as the P3 Orion(as GGTharos

mentioned), but of course also threats to the surface fleet itself.

 

It should be mentioned that the Ka-31 isn't an "AWACS" asset as such, but rather a flying 3D surveillance radar......the Ka-31 crew does not communicate directly with the fighters. The Ka-31 crew consists only of two members - the pilot who flies the helicopter through a predesignated route, and the radar operator for whom the sole task is to mechanically extend the E-801 "Oko" phased array radar panel from the belly of the helicopter, switch it on and, on a cockpit display, monitor that it is functioning properly. The radar itself is integrated with a radio-electronic suite, which automatically detects targets, identifies them and transmit the data to the Kuznetsov´s onboard command center.

 

Finally the Admiral Kuznetsov is fitted with an immensely dense onboard airdefence suite - consisting of the Klinok system with four MR-360 "Podkat" phased array radar posts(each commanding 6 octuple VLS launchers for the 9M-330 "Kinshal" missile), the Kashtan system with two command modules and eight combat modules(each with two Gsh-6-30K guns and eight 9M-311 "Kortik" missiles) and six AK-630 AA guns......some 256 ready-to-fire SAMs :shock:

 

What would it be shooting down - missiles/aircraft, and what types?

As mentioned above, mainly long range aerial ASW assets, but also enemy strike aircraft and incoming cruise missiles.

 

Would it be flying CAP forewarned, or would it be a rapid reaction launch to incoming aircraft/missiles?

As mentioned earlier, the Su-33 would be flying forward CAPs - it is well suited for this with its huge internal fuel load - thus impressive combat range, which can be further extended via "buddy-to-buddy" refuelling from an Su-33 equipped with the UPAZ refuelling pack. The combination of 3D air/surface surveillance provided by the Ka-31 in combination with in-flight Su-33s provides the quickest possible reaction to threats.

 

Any guesses about numbers of aircraft in a flight?

 

I think that would depend on the perceived threat level ;) - I don't know....two flights of two aircraft on a regular basis?

 

Would GCI be provided by a sea-based platform...

again as mentioned earlier, GCI is provided by the Admiral Kuznetsov based on the tactical picture obtained via the Ka-31.

 

....and on a related note, is ship-to-Sukhoi datalink a feature we should be asking from ED in the future?

 

Well that is how it works, so I would say yes :)

 

What other ships would most likely be in a group with the Kuz - and how many of them are in Lomac or the 279KIAP mod?

 

Hehe....thanks for bringing up my pet issue Britglider :lol: .

 

If we stick with surface ships, the most likely candidates are: Pr. 956("Sovremenny-class") AAW/AsuW destroyer, Pr. 1155("Udaloy-class") ASW destroyer and Pr. 1144.2("Kirov-class") heavy multirole missile cruiser + one or two underway replenishment ships.

 

We can be certain about the Pr 956 destroyer......during its "Med cruise" in 1996, the Admiral Kuznetsov was accompanied by the # 434 "Besstrashny" (Pr 956A/"Sovremenny-class") destroyer + a "Krivak I Mod-class ASW frigate(the name of which I cannot remember out of hand), the "Dnestr"("Boris Chilikin-class") and "Olekma"("Olekma-class") replenishment ships.

 

If you have seen the short video of the Admiral Kuznetsov´s recent exercise near Iceland, you will see that now 10 years later the "Besstrashny" is still firmly "glued" to the Kuznetsov as its personal bodyguard :) . The reason is quite simply that the Pr. 956 class is unsurpassed as airdefence ship - the Shtil system(two actually) it carries is a slow firing and little awkward in its mechanical launcher-arm construction, but it has superb cross-path capabilities - i.e. the ability to protect a nearby vessel from an imminent threat, whereas the longer ranged(and faster firing) S-300F Rif system is more useful for long range "theatre defence" and much less efficient at medium to close range, while systems like the Klinok and Kashtan are dedicated "point defence" systems designed solely to protect the ship on which they are installed :)

 

However, the "Med cruise" was more of a "maiden voyage" than an actual combat deployment, so I would expect its escort to be strengthened somewhat in connection with the latter. My proposal for a Russian group in Lock-on(or a sequel rather) would be a small, but capable group consisting of e.g....

 

# 063 "Admiral Kuznetsov" - (Pr. 1143.5) aviation cruiser

# 183 "Pyotr Velikiy" - (Pr. 1144.2) missile cruiser

# 434 "Besstrashny" - (Pr. 956A) AAW/ASuW destroyer

# 405 "Admiral Levchenko" - (Pr. 1155A) ASW destroyer

 

+ an UNREP vessel.....e.g. a "Boris Chilikin-class".

 

....a rather minimalistic composition, but incorporating all functions required for a realistic aviation cruiser group. If you compare my proposal with the group that went to the Med, you can see that I have pretty much replaced the "Krivak-1 Mod" ASW frigate with the(several times more capable) Udaloy-class ASW destroyer, and one of the replenishment ships with the Kirov-class cruiser :)

 

In other uses - would it be possible to see use of the Su33 as an A2G aircraft in a semi-realistic scenario?

 

Not really :) - apart from the fact the Su-33 has no sensors - neither radar nor EOS - capable of supporting guided air-to-surface munitions, the Su-33 is really too big an aircraft to be useful for A2G missions - contrary to common belief, the Su-33 cannot operate from the Kuz with full internal and external load. In its normal role of operation as a dedicated airdefence fighter, the heavy internal fuel load is accompanied only by a light external payload...namely air-to-air missiles. Moreover, considering that the Kuznetsov has a massive striking power with its P-700 missile battery, but only a single squadron(12 aircraft) of Su-33s, it would be "impractical" to say the least, to use this highly valuable, but scarce airdefence asset as a "bomb truck" :)

 

For anti-ship, SEAD and A2G strike missions you would need a smaller, much more versatile and advanced actual multirole fighter......enter MiG-29K ;)

 

Peacekeeping missions, perhaps? No-fly-zone CAPs and UN requested airstrikes?

 

No-Fly-Zone CAPs perhaps.....but again....the Kuznetsov is an aviation cruiser and its Su-33 airwing is for airdefence purposes....not a "power projection" airwing as with a "Western style" aircraft carrier :)

 

Alfa, feel free to point out any other obvious roles that Russia would use the Su33 in . . . . . thanks for any input :)

 

Hehe....I hope I did :)

[Alfa]

Caretaker,

 

I guess "Alfa" would be the guy with the MiG-29K on the head? ;) :lol:

[Kenan]

Alfa, some online sources say SU-33 differs from standard Flanker by having its navigational systems modified for sea operations?

 

In LOMAC both Flanker types have the same nav modes..is this also the case IRL or you just couldn't obtain more info on the naval version?

 

Thx!

[SUBS17]

Aaah the good old 80s...

 

 

(sorry but I needed some senseless creative relief today ;))

 

rofl

[Dmut]

Aaah the good old 80s...

 

 

(sorry but I needed some senseless creative relief today ;))

Fulcrumhead and Flankerheads :lol:

Caretaker, you are very creative! :supz:

[Alfa]

Alfa, some online sources say SU-33 differs from standard Flanker by having its navigational systems modified for sea operations?

 

That is correct :)

 

In LOMAC both Flanker types have the same nav modes..is this also the case IRL or you just couldn't obtain more info on the naval version?

 

Well you are right about the shortage of information on the Su-33 - up to recently this has also been the case with the Su-27. Apart from a modified NAV system, there is also some mention of radar modifications to optimise it for intercepting low-flying objects over sea, but I honestly dont know whether this is a case of improving the radar in general, or a particular(extra) mode optimised for this. But on the whole, the avionics suites of the Su-27 and Su-33 are reportedly all but identical.....I would say that the most significant modifications to the NAV system of the Su-33 concerns the incorporation of the carrier landing aide system - and this is represented in Lock-on :) .

 

Cheers,

- Jens.

[britgliderpilot]

Good stuff - thanks JJ!

 

 

So something we want to badger ED for with v1.2 is GCI/AWACS from the Kuz and a Ka31, right? :D

[Alfa]

You are welcome mate :D

 

So something we want to badger ED for with v1.2 is GCI/AWACS from the Kuz and a Ka31, right?

 

Well with 1.2 being centered around the Ka-50 attack helo, I think this is another one of those things that will have to wait until a naval oriented title comes along :)

 

Cheers,

- Jens.

[olaleier]

 

Well with 1.2 being centered around the Ka-50 attack helo, I think this is another one of those things that will have to wait until a naval oriented title comes along :)

 

Cheers,

- Jens.

 

Don't mean to second-guess here, but is it confirmed that the Ka-50 will be an addon similar in concept to 1.1? (That is, installed over 1.1 and adding content to the current engine)

 

Was hoping for some upgraded terrain modelling...trees suddenly become a major part of your envelope when you are doing the rotary-thing...higher poly terrain mesh is another thing, but I guess FM related stuff like finer feel of ground effect can be added like the AFM of the -25T.

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

...have to wait until a naval oriented title comes along...

Hey Alfa, I noticed that you had messed about some with naval units in the 279KIAP mod for Mig29K etc. The Pyotr Velikiy is obviously based on the model of something smaller. By looking at the Lockon manual and its threat warning section (presumably unaltered since Flanker) there is the Grozny(Kynda class) which would fit, having SS-N-3B shaddock and SA-N-3 Goa.

 

Is there any chance that someone such as yourself could add in the ships from Flanker that are missing from Lockon? Having only got into Flight Sims since Lockon, I never had the chance to see Flanker. I'd love to see the Spruance, Kynda, Kashin, Kara, Nanuchka, and of course both Krivaks. By the way, am I right in saying that Lockon is a bit messed up with Rezky (Krivak-2), since AN/ALR-56/69 shows Top Plate but it has HeadNet-C in its Skin?

[Alfa]

 

Well with 1.2 being centered around the Ka-50 attack helo, I think this is another one of those things that will have to wait until a naval oriented title comes along :)

 

Cheers,

- Jens.

 

Don't mean to second-guess here, but is it confirmed that the Ka-50 will be an addon similar in concept to 1.1? (That is, installed over 1.1 and adding content to the current engine)

 

Was hoping for some upgraded terrain modelling...trees suddenly become a major part of your envelope when you are doing the rotary-thing...higher poly terrain mesh is another thing, but I guess FM related stuff like finer feel of ground effect can be added like the AFM of the -25T.

 

Hi olaleier,

 

It is a little early to be talking about 1.2, and I cannot say anything about the exact nature and contents of it, other than what has been stated officially by ED - namely that it will be an add-on similar to 1.1 in concept and featuring a flyable Ka-50 attack helo :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

... it will feature playable kittens. ;)

[olaleier]

namely that it will be an add-on similar to 1.1 in concept and featuring a flyable Ka-50 attack helo :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Ok, I don't know that much about coding and the limitations of the Lock On engine, so I will put my terrain expectations at a level where I will not be disappointed. :wink:

 

 

... it will feature playable kittens. ;)

 

If ED needs performance data on various types of yarn, I can provide! :D

[Alfa]

Hi,

 

...have to wait until a naval oriented title comes along...

Hey Alfa, I noticed that you had messed about some with naval units in the 279KIAP mod for Mig29K etc. The Pyotr Velikiy is obviously based on the model of something smaller. By looking at the Lockon manual and its threat warning section (presumably unaltered since Flanker) there is the Grozny(Kynda class) which would fit, having SS-N-3B shaddock and SA-N-3 Goa.

 

Yes thats right(good catch :) ) - although the Pyotr Velikiy 3D model is present in the Lock-on shapes folder, there is no reference to it in the code, so I had to use one of the non-active ship entries to "activate" it. The one I used was the "Grozny" as you suspected - in fact you will see that the lockon.exe attaches the SA-N-3 launcher somewhere over the Pyotr Velikiys Granit launch hatches....which is a little annoying :lol: . I chose the Grozny-entry as "donor slot", because the position from which it launches its P-35 SSMs, corresponds quite closely to the position from which the Pyotr Velikiy launches its Granits - so by adding an extra Granit shape(renamed to "P-35"), I could give the impression of a working Granit launch from the Pyotr Velikiy :)

 

Is there any chance that someone such as yourself could add in the ships from Flanker that are missing from Lockon? Having only got into Flight Sims since Lockon, I never had the chance to see Flanker. I'd love to see the Spruance, Kynda, Kashin, Kara, Nanuchka, and of course both Krivaks.

 

Yes if you have Flanker 2.0/2.5 it is quite easy to "activate" the extra ships in Lock-on, but the 3D models are well below the modelling standard of the Lock-on models, so you will experience a rather significant "clash" in model fidelity - in other words....they dont look good in Lock-on :) .

 

By the way, am I right in saying that Lockon is a bit messed up with Rezky (Krivak-2), since AN/ALR-56/69 shows Top Plate but it has HeadNet-C in its Skin?

 

Hmm.....I am not too good with those(silly) Nato designations for Russian naval radars, but I believe what Nato calls "Top Plate" is the Fregat-MA series radar....

 

..here seen on a Pr. 956("Sovremenny-class) destroyer.

 

At any rate, Pr. 1135M ("Krivak-II") ASW frigate does not have the Fregat-M radar - only Pr. 1135.1 ("Krivak III") Patrol frigate and modernized Pr. 1135 (Krivak I Mod") have this :) .

 

There is an error with the "Moskva" in Lock-on, which is depicted as having a Fregat-MA "Top Plate" radar, although only the last commissioned vessel of the class - # 011 "Varyag"(Pacific Fleet) - has this.....the #121 "Moskva"(Black Sea Fleet) and #055 "Marshal Ustinov"(Northern Fleet) have an earlier Fregat version, which I believe Nato calls "Top Steer" :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

If ED needs performance data on various types of yarn, I can provide! :D

 

No need olaleier ;)

 

ED can already draw on expert advice on that area.......I have 5 cats! (unfortunately) :lol:

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

There is an error with the "Moskva" in Lock-on, which is depicted as having a Fregat-MA "Top Plate" radar, although only the last commissioned vessel of the class - # 011 "Varyag"(Pacific Fleet) - has this.....the #121 "Moskva"(Black Sea Fleet) and #055 "Marshal Ustinov"(Northern Fleet) have an earlier Fregat version, which I believe Nato calls "Top Steer"

You are right about the Top Steer/Top Plate mistake, I should've spotted that too as my reference book (Soviet Warships 1945-present by John Jordan) shows this, although it is rather old now and refers to the last of the class as Admiral Lobov..

 

model fidelity - in other words....they dont look good in Lock-on

Maybe thats a re-skinning project someone skilled (I sadly dont have a clue) could do one day....