Question regarding swedish doctrine (CAS)

[Snappy]

Hi,

 

slightly OT, but just out of curiosity during later cold war (70s/80s) in case of a conflict/soviet territorial invasion on swedish soil,

which aircraft would have taken up the role of CAS? The Viggen could probably do it, but seems less than ideal due to its

normally high speed profile&its "drop everything at once" during bomb runs.

The Saab 32 Lansen?

 

Regards

Snappy

[Johnny Johnny Johnny]

Would most likely been both lansen and aj 37 viggen doing the cas, get in gtfo, land at nearby roadbase, rearm, refuel, get up again for next run. Would assume the AJ 37 would use a combination of gunpods and RB05 for CAS or full set of Mavericks, or rockets...rockets are fun

[QuiGon]

I think the Sk 60 was the primary CAS aircraft of the Swedish Air Force at that time (similar to the Alpha Jet here in Germany back then). Viggens were primarily tasked with interdiction, but had a secondary CAS role.

 

@renhanxue might be able to clearify

Edited October 11, 2021 by QuiGon

[Johnny Johnny Johnny]

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I think the Sk 60 was the primary CAS aircraft of the Swedish Air Force at that time. Viggens were primarily tasked with interdiction, but had a secondary CAS role.

Forgot about the SK 60 , the only aircraft that is still in service   They did the christmas tree flyby last christmas outside my house.  

[Snappy]

Hey,

 

thanks a lot guys! Quite interesting- I had completely forgotten about the SK-60, but then again I didn’t realise it could be armed .

 

[renhanxue]

3 hours ago, Snappy said:

Hi,

 

slightly OT, but just out of curiosity during later cold war (70s/80s) in case of a conflict/soviet territorial invasion on swedish soil,

which aircraft would have taken up the role of CAS? The Viggen could probably do it, but seems less than ideal due to its

normally high speed profile&its "drop everything at once" during bomb runs.

The Saab 32 Lansen?

 

Regards

Snappy

Simple answer: the Swedish air force during the Cold War did not do CAS. Full stop.

 

There was no CAS doctrine, the army had no forward air controllers (except maybe at the very tail end of the 1980s, when they started getting something vaguely similar), and the air force and the army did not exercise together. CAS is something you can afford to do when you have air superiority, but the Swedish air force counted on having absolutely no hope of air superiority. The Swedish air force strike aircraft were strategic assets, not tactical, and could absolutely not be wasted on plinking tanks. Strategic high value targets only - invasion fleets, beachheads, bridges, big supply dumps, large convoys, etc. That went for the SK60 as well, although it was far less capable.

 

All of the AJ 37 squadrons were organized in a formation called E1, första flygeskadern. The chain of command was such that the immediate superior of the commander of E1 was the commander-in-chief, or the joint headquarters, which kinda illustrates what level of importance the intended targets would have. E1 could be likened to the USAF Strategic Air Command, but without the nukes. Under some circumstances though the headquarters could offer a military district commander (who would be in command of all forces in his district, typically at the very least a few brigades) a number of strike sorties per day that he could use as he saw fit. He would most certainly not waste these on plinking tanks either, but rather trying to get at supply lines or other strategic targets.

CAS doctrine development sort of started to be developed during the latter half of the 1980's though, but it was only the SK 60 squadrons that did it at first.

 

e: actually I went and looked up some sources and it looks like the SK 60 squadrons started developing something vaguely CAS-like earlier than I thought - they started training army-air force coordination platoons as early as the mid-70's. Still though it seems to have been a rather gradual process and they preferred pre-planned missions.

Edited October 11, 2021 by renhanxue

[QuiGon]

17 minutes ago, renhanxue said:

Simple answer: the Swedish air force during the Cold War did not do CAS. Full stop.

 

There was no CAS doctrine, the army had no forward air controllers (except maybe at the very tail end of the 1980s, when they started getting something vaguely similar), and the air force and the army did not exercise together. CAS is something you can afford to do when you have air superiority, but the Swedish air force counted on having absolutely no hope of air superiority. The Swedish air force strike aircraft were strategic assets, not tactical, and could absolutely not be wasted on plinking tanks. Strategic high value targets only - invasion fleets, beachheads, bridges, big supply dumps, large convoys, etc. That went for the SK60 as well, although it was far less capable.

 

All of the AJ 37 squadrons were organized in a formation called E1, första flygeskadern. The chain of command was such that the immediate superior of the commander of E1 was the commander-in-chief, or the joint headquarters, which kinda illustrates what level of importance the intended targets would have. E1 could be likened to the USAF Strategic Air Command, but without the nukes. Under some circumstances though the headquarters could offer a military district commander (who would be in command of all forces in his district, typically at the very least a few brigades) a number of strike sorties per day that he could use as he saw fit. He would most certainly not waste these on plinking tanks either, but rather trying to get at supply lines or other strategic targets.

CAS doctrine development sort of started to be developed during the latter half of the 1980's though, but it was only the SK 60 squadrons that did it at first.

 

 

Great answer!

 

I think we DCS simmers are way too focused on CAS as the do-it-all A/G role and tend to forget about other A/G roles. I think this comes from the A-10C having been the first and only aircraft in DCS at the beginning as well as the lack of a dynamic campaign that would simulate things like supply lines and such.

 

Here's some additional info on E1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Air_Group

And some info on the overall structure of the Swedish Armed Forces at the end of the Cold War (google translate helps): https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_försvarsmaktens_organisation_1989#Flygvapnet

Edited October 11, 2021 by QuiGon

[TLTeo]

And on a practical note, the Swedes weren't unique in that either. The Western-trained Iranian Air Force didn't really do what we would call "CAS" either in the Iran-Iraq war (e.g. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA263552 )

 

And yeah, lots of people, simmers or not, generally doesn't have the faintest understanding of how the air to ground mission works. They think plinking tanks is all there is to it (which in turn spawns all sorts of dumb, misinformed claims that this or that aircraft is not suited for a2g for whatever reason).

Edited October 11, 2021 by TLTeo

[Spirale]

exciting to read : thx Renhanxue

[Snappy]

5 hours ago, renhanxue said:

Simple answer: the Swedish air force during the Cold War did not do CAS. Full stop.

 

There was no CAS doctrine, the army had no forward air controllers (except maybe at the very tail end of the 1980s, when they started getting something vaguely similar), and the air force and the army did not exercise together. CAS is something you can afford to do when you have air superiority, but the Swedish air force counted on having absolutely no hope of air superiority. The Swedish air force strike aircraft were strategic assets, not tactical, and could absolutely not be wasted on plinking tanks. Strategic high value targets only - invasion fleets, beachheads, bridges, big supply dumps, large convoys, etc. That went for the SK60 as well, although it was far less capable.

 

All of the AJ 37 squadrons were organized in a formation called E1, första flygeskadern. The chain of command was such that the immediate superior of the commander of E1 was the commander-in-chief, or the joint headquarters, which kinda illustrates what level of importance the intended targets would have. E1 could be likened to the USAF Strategic Air Command, but without the nukes. Under some circumstances though the headquarters could offer a military district commander (who would be in command of all forces in his district, typically at the very least a few brigades) a number of strike sorties per day that he could use as he saw fit. He would most certainly not waste these on plinking tanks either, but rather trying to get at supply lines or other strategic targets.

CAS doctrine development sort of started to be developed during the latter half of the 1980's though, but it was only the SK 60 squadrons that did it at first.

 

e: actually I went and looked up some sources and it looks like the SK 60 squadrons started developing something vaguely CAS-like earlier than I thought - they started training army-air force coordination platoons as early as the mid-70's. Still though it seems to have been a rather gradual process and they preferred pre-planned missions.

 

Thank you very much for your awesome in-depth answer.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Snappy

[BravoYankee4]

Well, in a future DCS we can do some kind of CAS with the HKP9/BO105 helo  They used to be organized within the army, not the air force. Main task - striking MBT's coming from the east...

It would be fun to have the SK60 in DCS though. (and the Lansen, and the Draken, and the Tunnan, and the Vampire, and the A21... the list goes on  )