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Hey guys - anyone with a FFB joystick think the force feedback is solid now with the latest F-16c updates? I haven't flown it in a while so wanted to get some opinions.

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Hey guys - anyone with a FFB joystick think the force feedback is solid now with the latest F-16c updates? I haven't flown it in a while so wanted to get some opinions.

There is no force feed back in the viper IRL
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2 hours ago, llOPPOTATOll said:


There is no force feed back in the viper IRL

the viper stick isn't limp, it has forces acting on it as it has some deflection, thus those need to be translated onto ffb sticks as realistically as able. there were issues with this a while back

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The real stick barely moves, and is based around force input rather then movement. And the load on the stick doesn’t change regardless of flight condition. I don’t see how or why you’d try and replicate that with consumer level FFB.


Edited by Deano87
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5 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

The real stick barely moves, and is based around force input rather then movement. And the load on the stick doesn’t change regardless of flight condition. I don’t see how or why you’d try and replicate that with consumer level FFB.

 

as I said before, the viper stick isn't limp. its centered with specific forces acting on it. the goal is to have these forces replicated on a ffb stick, because there has to be forces on it, that's the nature of a ffb stick. there were issues a long time ago with the x and y axis having odd resistances. if you don't have a ffb stick then you won't really understand this thread  😉 

 

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6 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

as I said before, the viper stick isn't limp. its centered with specific forces acting on it. the goal is to have these forces replicated on a ffb stick, because there has to be forces on it, that's the nature of a ffb stick. there were issues a long time ago with the x and y axis having odd resistances. if you don't have a ffb stick then you won't really understand this thread  😉 

 

Just to clarify here, there is NO force feedback in the F-16 stick. The stic just has some very minor movement so to not mess with the pilots heads. There is no connection between the stick and the control surfaces nor are there any motors in the stick system to emulate the control surfaces. Assuming this isn't what Dresoccer is saying, i think he is talking about the resitance values for the stick. Considering it's a force feedback stick the actual recistance in the stick will have to be adjusted. There are no springs in this stick, so you need to set up the resistances so that it acts correctly, so we aren't actually talking about any feedback, simply that the resistance values or "force" if you will, needs to be adjusted correctly.
Now that all that is cleared up, I have no clue about how this force feedback stick actually works. I would assume it senses deflection and not force, and I would doubt it can handle much pressure. So you can't really get a 1:1 pound of pressure to roll rate/G, and you definetly can't get the correct deflection values that the real stick has because the real stick only moves so much and then it stops completely, while you can still put more pressure on.

So to finish this off, i don't think there is much reason to apply realism to this, and it will probably solely a matter of getting to a point where it "feels" correct. So anyone who doesn't actaully use these sticks I don't see any reason as to why you would want to contribute to this conversation considering that you can't really bring anything to the table form what I am aware of.

Anyway, hope you guys figure it out. Safe flights!

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can't comment on how it feels now, but have used both a MS FFB2 (force feedback) in the past and a FSSB-R3 Lighting (force sensing, like the real F-16) currently in DCS.

It would be technically possible to emulate a force sensing stick with a FFB stick, but I don't think the MS FFB2 provides the needed data. It would need to always force the stick towards the centre, then report motor current instead of stick position to DCS. The FFB is also a bit wobbly around the centre which would kind of ruin the feel.

So if the manufacturer of a more modern FFB stick makes the driving current available to DCS, it would be possible for ED to make it feel kind of like a force-sensing stick. But without that data, there isn't really anything they can do and it will have to act like a spring-centred stick with no feedback from the plane.

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/30/2021 at 9:38 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

Just to clarify here, there is NO force feedback in the F-16 stick. The stic just has some very minor movement so to not mess with the pilots heads. There is no connection between the stick and the control surfaces nor are there any motors in the stick system to emulate the control surfaces. Assuming this isn't what Dresoccer is saying, i think he is talking about the resitance values for the stick. Considering it's a force feedback stick the actual recistance in the stick will have to be adjusted. There are no springs in this stick, so you need to set up the resistances so that it acts correctly, so we aren't actually talking about any feedback, simply that the resistance values or "force" if you will, needs to be adjusted correctly.
Now that all that is cleared up, I have no clue about how this force feedback stick actually works. I would assume it senses deflection and not force, and I would doubt it can handle much pressure. So you can't really get a 1:1 pound of pressure to roll rate/G, and you definetly can't get the correct deflection values that the real stick has because the real stick only moves so much and then it stops completely, while you can still put more pressure on.

So to finish this off, i don't think there is much reason to apply realism to this, and it will probably solely a matter of getting to a point where it "feels" correct. So anyone who doesn't actaully use these sticks I don't see any reason as to why you would want to contribute to this conversation considering that you can't really bring anything to the table form what I am aware of.

Anyway, hope you guys figure it out. Safe flights!

As he said, you need to have FFB stick to understand this problem.  But i'll try to explain. Basically a force feedback stick is just like a regular spring joystick, except the centering force is done with the ffb, not a spring. Theres no spring at all, it goes completely limp when you power it off, just like a force feedback wheel would. It's not force sensing in any way, this had nothing to do with that, it reads X and Y axes just the same as any other stick, its just the centering force that is adjusted with the ffb giving you feedback.

 

Now if the FFB is botched, you basically have a normal spring centered joystick except that theres no spring because the FFB is dead, its limp and as such very hard to center or fly with.

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Ok, So currently if you have a FFB stick its literally just limp in the F-16 atm? Yeah I agree that would need fixing with some basic centering spring force.


Edited by Deano87
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8 hours ago, Deano87 said:

Ok, So currently if you have a FFB stick its literally just limp in the F-16 atm? Yeah I agree that would need fixing with some basic centering spring force.

 

no, it's not limp. however the forces acting on the stick were really wonky and unnatural feeling (really limp roll but much tighter pitch). thus the whole point of this thread was to ask other FFB users if the forces have been updated at all in the last 6 months to feel better as the jet is being constantly worked on

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18 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

no, it's not limp. however the forces acting on the stick were really wonky and unnatural feeling (really limp roll but much tighter pitch). thus the whole point of this thread was to ask other FFB users if the forces have been updated at all in the last 6 months to feel better as the jet is being constantly worked on

I wonder if that’s related to the ratio of force required for full deflection of pitch and roll in the real jet? I’m guessing you’d prefer the same force for both axis?

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No abnormal issues with my msffb2. My subjective impression is that the Viper is pretty mushy to fly in DCS. Maybe that's what you're noticing. I've tried other sticks without any difference in the handling.

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On 1/8/2022 at 9:37 PM, gavagai said:

No abnormal issues with my msffb2. My subjective impression is that the Viper is pretty mushy to fly in DCS. Maybe that's what you're noticing. I've tried other sticks without any difference in the handling.

yeah it seemed super mush compared to other mainline fighters in dcs. which seems opposite of how it should be as the irl stick is very stiff. but early on in the early access the pitch and roll stiffnesses were drastically different which gave it a super wonky feel. 

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2 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

yeah it seemed super mush compared to other mainline fighters in dcs. which seems opposite of how it should be as the irl stick is very stiff. but early on in the early access the pitch and roll stiffnesses were drastically different which gave it a super wonky feel. 

Should they not be different if the real aircraft uses much less force for roll than it does for pitch? Most aircraft have a much stiffer stick in pitch then they do in roll. 

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