Map Performance

[Czar66]

29 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

OK, after a week at it, I have a solution to the 900' ball drop, (for me).

I bought, SA, Kola and Afghanistan, the last 2 of which I can run at High settings without problems.

SA is different.

I also bought F4, F1 and Viggan at the same time, all of which work on Kola and Afghan at High settings without probs.

SA is different.

Aircraft type and settings are crucial in getting an aircraft from a high altitude interception, back down through the 900' barrier.

Viggan and Harrier will work OK with a High - setting, but F4, F1, F15 won't.

They need a Medium + setting which gets them through the barrier but still looks good. 

VSync fast. VRam 9800. Ram 1100. GPU temp 70C. CPU 62C.

This:-

 

I'm gradually increasing settings until it stops working.

..

 

 

It is not settings based. It is a problem with the map.
I got the performance back after landing with a combination of ESC key (pause) that I can't reproduce. (time constraints)

If it were dependent on modules the performance would never go back and it would >>>always<<< perform badly near the ground.

Something happens after climbing that overflows the GPU/graphics tasking when getting bellow 900ft in unknown conditions.
I've put the vegetation sliders, either grass and forests to ZERO without success of fixing the issue on the fly.

I've flown low level with the F-4, for fun, on an instant action mission and it performed fine down low at that map region (free flight IA mission).

 

Something is off with the map.

I've had low end systems with DCS, many different setups. It is not because the map is "heavy". It is a render issue somewhere.

[Holbeach]

34 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

It is not settings based. It is a problem with the map.
I got the performance back after landing with a combination of ESC key (pause) that I can't reproduce. (time constraints)

If it were dependent on modules the performance would never go back and it would >>>always<<< perform badly near the ground.

Something happens after climbing that overflows the GPU/graphics tasking when getting bellow 900ft in unknown conditions.
I've put the vegetation sliders, either grass and forests to ZERO without success of fixing the issue on the fly.

I've flown low level with the F-4, for fun, on an instant action mission and it performed fine down low at that map region (free flight IA mission).

 

Something is off with the map.

I've had low end systems with DCS, many different setups. It is not because the map is "heavy". It is a render issue somewhere.

I quite agree, it's a problem with the map and this is what I'm trying to convey.

No other map acts like this.

I've had to do a work round to make it usable.

This is not how it should be.

..

Edited August 25, 2024 by Holbeach

[Czar66]

Saddly the developer seems to be asleep with this issue. Should a new thread be made to get the deserving attention?

[Holbeach]

7 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

Saddly the developer seems to be asleep with this issue. Should a new thread be made to get the deserving attention?

There are several threads already covering this map problem.

Razbam is not known for involvement in DCS Forum, regarding problems.

This is why I try to sort it out myself.

..

 

[Czar66]

48 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

There are several threads already covering this map problem.

Razbam is not known for involvement in DCS Forum, regarding problems.

This is why I try to sort it out myself.

..

 

The developer in charge of the map is not Razbam. The developer is detatched from Razbam. Is the same from Kola map.

[demonesque]

I also agree with what you are both saying here. The problem is made worse by the amount of load that is on your machine, for instance with mine being pushed into vr it happens almost all the time except when using a 'light load' aircraft like the p51. But it is even possible to get it to trigger with that sometimes. Just like it is some times possible for it not to trigger for a while with the higher load aircraft as well. 

There is something different with the way this map is put together just like you say. 

[demonesque]

6 hours ago, Czar66 said:

It is not settings based. It is a problem with the map.
I got the performance back after landing with a combination of ESC key (pause) that I can't reproduce. (time constraints)

If it were dependent on modules the performance would never go back and it would >>>always<<< perform badly near the ground.

Something happens after climbing that overflows the GPU/graphics tasking when getting bellow 900ft in unknown conditions.
I've put the vegetation sliders, either grass and forests to ZERO without success of fixing the issue on the fly.

I've flown low level with the F-4, for fun, on an instant action mission and it performed fine down low at that map region (free flight IA mission).

 

Something is off with the map.

I've had low end systems with DCS, many different setups. It is not because the map is "heavy". It is a render issue somewhere.

Also Czar, it is not just after climbing that this problem occurs. Using Holbeach's mission I have the problem from mission start on the runway, so it is not an initial altitude dependent trigger. At least for this system. 

[Czar66]

16 hours ago, demonesque said:

Also Czar, it is not just after climbing that this problem occurs. Using Holbeach's mission I have the problem from mission start on the runway, so it is not an initial altitude dependent trigger. At least for this system. 

That's interesting. Is it a free mission? If it is and you have a link with time to post here I'd appreciate. Thanks.

Edit: It is on this thread itself. I was blind.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Czar66

[Holbeach]

15 hours ago, Czar66 said:

That's interesting. Is it a free mission? If it is and you have a link with time to post here I'd appreciate. Thanks.

The mission is in my post on the previous page.

Please try it. I made it to practice use of A/A missiles, starting at Stanley with a F4 and standard RAF fit of 4 AIM7E, 4 AIM 9, 2 tanks.

Using new settings.

Stanley 62fps. Climb at full AB 75 fps. 30000' 105fps.

Shoot down 2 Bears north of island. Descend to 200' AGL. Return to Stanley 75 fps. Land. If facing east, 75 fps on runway.

Using High settings.

The ball dropped as usual at 900', returning to Stanley.

 

..

Edited August 26, 2024 by Holbeach

[Czar66]

7 hours ago, Holbeach said:

The mission is in my post on the previous page.

Please try it. I made it to practice use of A/A missiles, starting at Stanley with a F4 and standard RAF fit of 4 AIM7E, 4 AIM 9, 2 tanks.

Using new settings.

Stanley 62fps. Climb at full AB 75 fps. 30000' 105fps.

Shoot down 2 Bears north of island. Descend to 200' AGL. Return to Stanley 75 fps. Land. If facing east, 75 fps on runway.

..

 

Thank you, I completely missed it and didn't connect the name, my bad. I will test it.

[Holbeach]

Here is a simple mission I'm using at the moment to adjust settings to make the map workable. (More or less the same as the other one).

Shoot the Bear at 30000' then descend to low alt to shoot 2 F1 bombers attempting to bomb Stanley.

Simple repeat mission to adjust settings to make this map workable, but still look good.

High settings are guaranteed to drop the ball with the F4.

Med plus, settings are working OK, so I will stick with it for a while.

 

..

 

Falkland AA .miz

[Czar66]

22 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Here is a simple mission I'm using at the moment to adjust settings to make the map workable. (More or less the same as the other one).

Shoot the Bear at 30000' then descend to low alt to shoot 2 F1 bombers attempting to bomb Stanley.

Simple repeat mission to adjust settings to make this map workable, but still look good.

High settings are guaranteed to drop the ball with the F4.

Med plus, settings are working OK, so I will stick with it for a while.

 

..

 

Falkland AA .miz 13.27 kB · 4 downloads

I tested your falklands mission. No issues from the runway here and GPU load is as expected. Different from @demonesque report.

I can't use that medium settings. It is a no go for me. I lock the FPS at 40 for the reason of not having any drop ever on any map, besides Sinai and Afghanistan because I don't own those yet. That's including the heaviest of them all, Marianas above its biggest city. Smooth and I can completely disregard on where I look and at any zoom level without worrying about performance on a 64gb Ram system.

Is this issue only triggered by the F-4?

I had missions with the F-4 that had zero issues and everything was perfect on startup, taxi and takeoff -> Climb to ~25k ft -> bomb/strike and by that point, if I would dip bellow 900ft AGL the slow down/GPU overload would occur. I had an Sa-6 shooting at me on my latest mission last week and I couldn't mask myself behind the small hills on the region because of the massive input lag this problem induced and it would lead into crashing my plane so I couldn't press at all through the Sa-6 defended area to get to the objective.

Other missions the problem appeared magically on landing, a place that was free of this issue when I took off from there.
Radar ON or OFF, no difference. Mirrors ON or OFF too.

I'll jump into the F-15E, F-18 and F-16 and have full missions on those. I'll report back on each. Edit: I'll use your last mission posted as well with those planes. Perhaps is a faster test.

Thanks.

Update: I flown your last mission with the Hornet and the Viper. From base to mission and back to base. Zero issues.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Czar66

[Czar66]

I confirm where the problem is: F-4 Phantom Module's Radar + South Atlantic Map flying bellow 900ft in populated mission condition*. *-not fully confirmed.

Permanent fix* for this issue: Tick the box where it says 'CPU: Radar Performance Mode (WIP)' from the F-4 Special tab, even though the issue affects the GPU rendering. *Edit: doubtful of its effectiveness with further testings.

Mission file for consistent testing attached. Don't splash the objective as it is a bit buggy because it was re saved from my sim but originally it is a Briefing Room generated mission. Error windows will appear but it won't crash the sim if you splash the objectives.

It features the Viper and the F-4 as playable. Hot spawn on ramp.
Fly EAST after taking off and cross the body of water while climbing. Descend near the land on the other side towards bellow 900ft agl above ground.

With the Radar Performance Mode box unchecked, the F-4 Suffers severe GPU usage spike right bellow 900ft. Climbing above 900ft AGL the issue stops.

With the Radar Performance Mode box CHECKED, the issue is gone completely and the plane can be flown on whatever setting you set up your game.

Edit:
1- I couldn't reproduce the issue on Holbeach's missions, even though Demonesque could.
2- It seems the F-4 radar rendering is always on (disconnected from the radar logic in the sim), hence why the issue is always present regardless of telling jester to turn the radar off.

Fair skies...

@Holbeach @demonesque

Falklands - Operation Safe Edge.miz

Edited August 29, 2024 by Czar66

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:01 PM, Holbeach said:

Here is a simple mission I'm using at the moment to adjust settings to make the map workable. (More or less the same as the other one).

Shoot the Bear at 30000' then descend to low alt to shoot 2 F1 bombers attempting to bomb Stanley.

Simple repeat mission to adjust settings to make this map workable, but still look good.

High settings are guaranteed to drop the ball with the F4.

Med plus, settings are working OK, so I will stick with it for a while.

 

..

 

Falkland AA .miz 13.27 kB · 5 downloads

Hate to be that guy, but your going to have issues trying to fly DCS on a 13 year old CPU, 16GB ram, no doubt same age and an 8 year old GPU as per your hardware. 

The problem is to satisy running the new modules on your machine would be to downgrade the product for others that have newer hardware and invest in the hardware.

There was quite a few optimisation issues with this map on release but for me its running as well as most other maps currently.  Invest in your hardware if you want to have a good DCS experience, its literally brutal on hardware.

[Czar66]

23 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Hate to be that guy, but your going to have issues trying to fly DCS on a 13 year old CPU, 16GB ram, no doubt same age and an 8 year old GPU as per your hardware. 

The problem is to satisy running the new modules on your machine would be to downgrade the product for others that have newer hardware and invest in the hardware.

There was quite a few optimisation issues with this map on release but for me its running as well as most other maps currently.  Invest in your hardware if you want to have a good DCS experience, its literally brutal on hardware.

It is not a CPU problem. Read my post above yours.

[demonesque]

5 hours ago, Czar66 said:

I confirm where the problem is: F-4 Phantom Module's Radar + South Atlantic Map flying bellow 900ft in populated mission condition*. *-not fully confirmed.

Permanent fix for this issue: Tick the box where it says 'CPU: Radar Performance Mode (WIP)' from the F-4 Special tab, even though the issue affects the GPU rendering.

Mission file for consistent testing attached. Don't splash the objective as it is a bit buggy because it was re saved from my sim but originally it is a Briefing Room generated mission. Error windows will appear but it won't crash the sim if you splash the objectives.

It features the Viper and the F-4 as playable. Hot spawn on ramp.
Fly EAST after taking off and cross the body of water while climbing. Descend near the land on the other side towards bellow 900ft agl above ground.

With the Radar Performance Mode box unchecked, the F-4 Suffers severe GPU usage spike right bellow 900ft. Climbing above 900ft AGL the issue stops.

With the Radar Performance Mode box CHECKED, the issue is gone completely and the plane can be flown on whatever setting you set up your game.

Edit:
1- I couldn't reproduce the issue on Holbeach's missions, even though Demonesque could.
2- It seems the F-4 radar rendering is always on (disconnected from the radar logic in the sim), hence why the issue is always present regardless of telling jester to turn the radar off.

Fair skies...

@Holbeach @demonesque

Falklands - Operation Safe Edge.miz 2.32 MB · 4 downloads

 

Interesting. I dont own the F4 so it will be interesting to see it this fixes that plane for @Holbeach . 

However as I am pushing my machine fairly hard to run VR it happens on almost all aircraft. I was using the F14 in Holbeach's test mission and the Mossie in my own nearly blank test mission.

But as I say, only on this map, and only at low level. I accept the limitations of my machine and vr on all other maps of 35-55 fps under load as @Hawkeye_UK is talking about. That is acceptable and includes the Marianas. But there is something different and obscure going on here on this one map. (See images from previous posts with severe stepped drops in fps below 900ft AGL)

Edited August 27, 2024 by demonesque

[Czar66]

1 hour ago, demonesque said:

Interesting. I dont own the F4 so it will be interesting to see it this fixes that plane for @Holbeach . 

However as I am pushing my machine fairly hard to run VR it happens on almost all aircraft. I was using the F14 in Holbeach's test mission and the Mossie in my own nearly blank test mission.

But as I say, only on this map, and only at low level. I accept the limitations of my machine and vr on all other maps of 35-55 fps under load as @Hawkeye_UK is talking about. That is acceptable and includes the Marianas. But there is something different and obscure going on here on this one map. (See images from previous posts with severe stepped drops in fps below 900ft AGL)

 

Understood. The F-4 is another beast completely in comparison to other modules, even the Tomcat. My setup can handle it at 40fps locked, but as I monitor my system with "Open Hardware Monitor" on a second monitor live, I don't see a lot of difference from other modules. To add: I used to own a i5 10400 when the F-4 launched and it made me upgrade to a i5 12600k to get it going smoothly, CPU wise.

I posted here a video showing it too. The issue with the 900ft agl is GPU related as I monitor it live. GPU goes from 60-70% and smooth at 40fps clocked to 100% max clock and dipping bellow 40 towards 20s fps just by crossing that line of altitude. And I had this issue randomly eliminated before by going on the menu and back into the mission after landing, wherever this issue is.

By checking the box of "Radar Performance Mode" on its special tab I got it going normal like other modules, but ofc still is the Heatblur F-4.

It can be the map causing havok on the F-4 radar tech by some other tech used, it can be a problem on both.
I frequently fly low level with it. No other map it displayed this behavior.

I'll continue to test, and if I have anything new I'll remember to post it here. This threw me off DCS for a bit as I just bought both of these addons.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Czar66

[Holbeach]

@Czar66 Glad to hear you sorted the F4, but it won't suit me as I need other planes to behave, especially the F1CE.

The good news is, my new settings are holding up well.

I raised the Med and reduced the High settings until one thing stood out, Textures to Medium in both. This seemes to have done the trick.

I can now descend through the 900' twilight zone and maintain fps to ground level, 75 for F1 and F4, 85 for F15, (not bad for a 13 year old pooter).

When using other maps I can go to full high.

 

 

..

[Czar66]

55 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

@Czar66 Glad to hear you sorted the F4, but it won't suit me as I need other planes to behave, especially the F1CE.

The good news is, my new settings are holding up well.

I raised the Med and reduced the High settings until one thing stood out, Textures to Medium in both. This seemes to have done the trick.

I can now descend through the 900' twilight zone and maintain fps to ground level, 75 for F1 and F4, 85 for F15, (not bad for a 13 year old pooter).

When using other maps I can go to full high.

 

 

..

Dude.... the fix is on the F-4 special tab. It is only for the F-4. You're downgrading the graphics for nothing for the 900ft agl problem in specific.

Hopefully you can upgrade your system soon. Cheers.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Czar66

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 8/27/2024 at 7:27 PM, Czar66 said:

It is not a CPU problem. Read my post above yours.

I did and the problem is trying, as i said in my post, politely, running the latest modules and terrain that have ground radar that read the terrain and trying to push that through a 13 year old CPU and 8 year old very limited GPU.  It is absolutely a hardware issue as when you check that box it then stops alot of the resolution of the radar.

If the user had to upgrade to say a 13th/14th gen intel, along with 64gb ram and a 4080 he wouldn't have any framerate issues.

 

[Czar66]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

I did and the problem is trying, as i said in my post, politely, running the latest modules and terrain that have ground radar that read the terrain and trying to push that through a 13 year old CPU and 8 year old very limited GPU.  It is absolutely a hardware issue as when you check that box it then stops alot of the resolution of the radar.

If the user had to upgrade to say a 13th/14th gen intel, along with 64gb ram and a 4080 he wouldn't have any framerate issues.

 

1. The FPS issue I've shown comes from GPU saturation. Not CPU. In only at the South Atlantic map with the Phantom module.

2. The map isn't heavy by any means. Marianas is much heavier and this issue is absent. Is a combination of two modules for some unknown reason (SA + F-4E).

You've read it the wrong way.

A 4080 will not show this issue due to sheer power. As soon as the sim upgrades, the issue will become more severe with this GPU.

It is a 200 to 400% GPU usage increase down to the number at 900ft agl. At 901ft agl there is a massive increase in performance. This is nowhere near linear.

Is an issue with the module's radar and the South Atlantic map being triggered at roughtly 900ft agl instantaneously.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Czar66

[demonesque]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

I did and the problem is trying, as i said in my post, politely, running the latest modules and terrain that have ground radar that read the terrain and trying to push that through a 13 year old CPU and 8 year old very limited GPU.  It is absolutely a hardware issue as when you check that box it then stops alot of the resolution of the radar.

If the user had to upgrade to say a 13th/14th gen intel, along with 64gb ram and a 4080 he wouldn't have any framerate issues.

 

Also politely, as reported previously, on the occasional times I (and the others) have got this issue not to occur for a short while, I have had my full 60 fps down to 20ft agl in my test mission. Not the neutered 13fps. So I know my hardware can do it. It is a bottle neck on this map that does not occur on other maps in the same way.

Respectfully, programming errors are not a reason to upgrade hardware. 

[Czar66]

3 hours ago, demonesque said:

Respectfully, programming errors are not a reason to upgrade hardware. 

Likely correct. Is not even optimization, is a programming issue/design issue somewhere, from my observations.

If someone have this issue, just check the Radar Performance Mode box under the F-4 special tab and it is all smooth sailing again. Edit: doubtful of its effectiveness with further testings.

Something somewhere in conflict to one another between these two.

Thank you.

Edited August 29, 2024 by Czar66

[Biggus]

I wouldn't consider the Phantom special radar option a fix for this issue.  It's a workaround for a specific module in a specific scenario.

I've tested nine modules (F1, F-15E, F-16C, F/A-18C, F-4E, A-10C2, AV-8B, F-14B, M2000C) in unpopulated scenarios at a variety of locations, and every single one of them exhibits performance issues passing through 900ft AGL on the South Atlantic map.  There is some randomisation to it - sometimes a module won't suffer in one particular instance, but if you attempt the same mission with the same scenario later, the issue will resurface.  Sometimes it improves noticeably after a patch, but then it returns in the next patch cycle even though nothing should have changed at all.

VR, flat screen, high settings, low settings, it doesn't matter.  The most noticeable individual settings change was to drop forest details factor as far to the left as it will go.

[Czar66]

1 hour ago, Biggus said:

I wouldn't consider the Phantom special radar option a fix for this issue.  It's a workaround for a specific module in a specific scenario.

I've tested nine modules (F1, F-15E, F-16C, F/A-18C, F-4E, A-10C2, AV-8B, F-14B, M2000C) in unpopulated scenarios at a variety of locations, and every single one of them exhibits performance issues passing through 900ft AGL on the South Atlantic map.  There is some randomisation to it - sometimes a module won't suffer in one particular instance, but if you attempt the same mission with the same scenario later, the issue will resurface.  Sometimes it improves noticeably after a patch, but then it returns in the next patch cycle even though nothing should have changed at all.

VR, flat screen, high settings, low settings, it doesn't matter.  The most noticeable individual settings change was to drop forest details factor as far to the left as it will go.

You just wrecked me right there.

4 out of 4 flights with Hornet and Viper displayed zero issues on my testing.
3 out of 5 on the F-4 displayed the issue. From the 2 with no issues, one was Holbeach's last mission posted, the other was with the option checked.

Thanks for the findings. I'll keep looking when I get more time in the sim.