Thrustmaster Pendular Rudder Default Axis Causes Kick To Left At Start of Mission

[LowRider88]

There seems to be a problem with the Thrustmaster Pendular Rudder's default axis in DCS.

After launching a custom mission in which the plane starts in the air, it will immediately kick left.

Depending on the plane (e.g. most pronounced with F-5E), the plane will then go out of control.

It will only regain control once the rudder is moved.

Looking into the Axis controls for the rudder, it seems DCS defaults the rudder to the JOY_RZ axis, when the one it should use, and the one I assigned to it should be the JOY_Z axis.

This will repeat every time the mission is restarted.

I found there is a "default.lua" file which contains axis default values, and there are entries for other market rudders, but none for this TPR.  I tried to add this to the Lua file on my own, but was not able to as the exact name of the entry seems to be required from the vendor.

Without its own entry in this file, it seems the TPR defaults to the general setting, which has the Rudder assigned to the JOY_RZ Axis, and the Thrust to the JOY_Z Axis, which may be causing the kick left at start, since the throttle may typically be placed in the off or max setting, which may map on the Rudder as "left".

This is currently causing a lot of crashes at the start of the mission.

[St4rgun]

It seem to be the auto-calibration feature of the Thrustmaster pedals.

Check this out:

 

[LowRider88]

15 hours ago, St4rgun said:

It seem to be the auto-calibration feature of the Thrustmaster pedals.

Check this out:

 

Thanks St4rgun, however this did not fix the issue described here.

By your description of your own issue it does not sound the same, as the rudder does work for me, but only after I move it during the custom mission.  It still kicks left every start of the mission.

I believe the issue may be the data.lua file I mentioned.

[St4rgun]

I also had that max left rudder issue before my toe brakes started to unbehave (mostly in Mi-24 Caucasus Weapon range mission).

Now that I did the actions I wrote the "starting with full left rudder" also disappeared, so if you did not tried yet, then give it a try.

I had to learn this way that Thrustmaster is auto-calibrating itself upon slight axis movement. I do this when started DCS in the menu, just push all axes (rudder, toe brakes).

After that calibration every issues disappeared.

[LowRider88]

5 hours ago, St4rgun said:

I also had that max left rudder issue before my toe brakes started to unbehave (mostly in Mi-24 Caucasus Weapon range mission).

Now that I did the actions I wrote the "starting with full left rudder" also disappeared, so if you did not tried yet, then give it a try.

I had to learn this way that Thrustmaster is auto-calibrating itself upon slight axis movement. I do this when started DCS in the menu, just push all axes (rudder, toe brakes).

After that calibration every issues disappeared.

Thanks St4rgun.  I had tried it before I replied, but no luck.

In your instructions, you say remove driver, then remove software.  Are these the same?  If not, which software name are you referring to?

I noticed the properties for me were the same as for you, in that I see the default windows first then the TPR version later.

But there is no indication of how windows or DCS updated the calibration.

[St4rgun]

No, they are not the same.

1. First you should remove the Thrustmaster driver (from Win10 Apps&features list look for the "Thrustmaster FFB driver" and UNINSTALL).

2. After that look for the rudder device in device manager (Win10 START menu -> Settings -> Devices) and hit REMOVE to totally remove the device from the computer.

3. Now phisically disconnect the rudder from the USB port.

4. After those steps start by connecting the device to the USB port, Win10 will recognize it and automatically installs default driver. That's OK, but do NOT do any other with that default driver (DO NOT CALIBRATE!).

5. Now you can re-install Thrustmaster rudder driver. After the installatation check the properties of the rudder (Win+R -> type in "joy.cpl"+ENTER to quick get to the joystick devices), if you hit the "Properties" button, then the Thrustmaster status page should appear like this:

 

If that is the case then you've done everything properly. Now if you move any axes or toe brakes the toe brake axes jump out the default centered position to the zero value and change according to the pedal press. At the moment of a small movement the hardware calibrates itself automatically, but you have to do that movement some times for the auto calibration to kisk in (maybe once after reboots, or once after DCS starts, I've not checked yet).

If you configured everything properly then only have to move the pedals once DCS started in the main menu. If everything working well, then all the toe brake and full left pedal related issues should disappear.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by St4rgun

[LowRider88]

1 hour ago, St4rgun said:

No, they are not the same.

1. First you should remove the Thrustmaster driver (from Win10 Apps&features list look for the "Thrustmaster FFB driver" and UNINSTALL).

2. After that look for the rudder device in device manager (Win10 START menu -> Settings -> Devices) and hit REMOVE to totally remove the device from the computer.

3. Now phisically disconnect the rudder from the USB port.

4. After those steps start by connecting the device to the USB port, Win10 will recognize it and automatically installs default driver. That's OK, but do NOT do any other with that default driver (DO NOT CALIBRATE!).

5. Now you can re-install Thrustmaster rudder driver. After the installatation check the properties of the rudder (Win+R -> type in "joy.cpl"+ENTER to quick get to the joystick devices), if you hit the "Properties" button, then the Thrustmaster status page should appear like this:

 

If that is the case then you've done everything properly. Now if you move any axes or toe brakes the toe brake axes jump out the default centered position to the zero value and change according to the pedal press. At the moment of a small movement the hardware calibrates itself automatically, but you have to do that movement some times for the auto calibration to kisk in (maybe once after reboots, or once after DCS starts, I've not checked yet).

If you configured everything properly then only have to move the pedals once DCS started in the main menu. If everything working well, then all the toe brake and full left pedal related issues should disappear.

 

 

I did all your steps with the exceptions of 1 and 2.

For 1, I believe you are referring to the FFB rudders, whereas I am using the TPR ones, so I don't see FFB driver.  I see the Rudder driver by another name.

For 2 I did not do this as these were not in your original set of steps.  I will try tonight.

Are you able to confirm if you are using the TPR rudders or another Thrustmaster Rudder type?  If you are not using TPR, I still believe the data.lua file maybe the issue.

Also are you able to test the following?

- Create a mission where you are starting in the air with either the F-5E or MiG-19.

- At mission start, see if the plane kicks Rudder left.

- If not, move the Rudder axis, and stop the mission, then restart it and check again.

- Repeat above but logout of DCS first.

Edited December 29, 2021 by LowRider88

[St4rgun]

I'm using TFRP, not TPR. Interestingly the driver named FFB, I don't have any idea why...

I'm pretty sure that STEP 2 is the important part, because that's what removes the misconfigured Win10 default driver from the system.

I'll just start DCS and check out a quick mission as you requested. BRB with the results.

[St4rgun]

Now the results:

1. Freshly rebooted PC, started DCS (i'm using VR, with G2), mission editor, test.

2. Caucasus, in the air, both F-5E and MiG-19 tested.

3. I did NOT touch the pedals AT ALL (not prior booting, nor after).

4. The planes behave perfectly balanced at mission start without touching the rudder pedals. Not a sign of any left rudder proplem. After that the rudder and toe brakes work as intended I can use them fine.

Tried the above after DCS restart, with the same results. Everything is working fine.

Edited December 29, 2021 by St4rgun

[LowRider88]

8 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

Now the results:

1. Freshly rebooted PC, started DCS (i'm using VR, with G2), mission editor, test.

2. Caucasus, in the air, both F-5E and MiG-19 tested.

3. I did NOT touch the pedals AT ALL (not prior booting, nor after).

4. The planes behave perfectly balanced at mission start without touching the rudder pedals. Not a sign of any left rudder proplem. After that the rudder and toe brakes work as intended I can use them fine.

Tried the above after DCS restart, with the same results. Everything is working fine.

 

Thanks very much St4rgun for your willingness to help.

Okay I will try step 2 again after work.

Regarding your tests of my request, for me after mission start for the first time after launching DCS, the Rudder will sometimes not kick left.  However, it will always after this initial start if I move the Rudder axis during this mission instance, stop the mission and restart it.

[LowRider88]

8 hours ago, St4rgun said:

No, they are not the same.

1. First you should remove the Thrustmaster driver (from Win10 Apps&features list look for the "Thrustmaster FFB driver" and UNINSTALL).

2. After that look for the rudder device in device manager (Win10 START menu -> Settings -> Devices) and hit REMOVE to totally remove the device from the computer.

3. Now phisically disconnect the rudder from the USB port.

4. After those steps start by connecting the device to the USB port, Win10 will recognize it and automatically installs default driver. That's OK, but do NOT do any other with that default driver (DO NOT CALIBRATE!).

5. Now you can re-install Thrustmaster rudder driver. After the installatation check the properties of the rudder (Win+R -> type in "joy.cpl"+ENTER to quick get to the joystick devices), if you hit the "Properties" button, then the Thrustmaster status page should appear like this:

 

If that is the case then you've done everything properly. Now if you move any axes or toe brakes the toe brake axes jump out the default centered position to the zero value and change according to the pedal press. At the moment of a small movement the hardware calibrates itself automatically, but you have to do that movement some times for the auto calibration to kisk in (maybe once after reboots, or once after DCS starts, I've not checked yet).

If you configured everything properly then only have to move the pedals once DCS started in the main menu. If everything working well, then all the toe brake and full left pedal related issues should disappear.

 

 

Just tried it now.  I did see the Rudder in the Settings > Devices view now.  So it is properly removed now.  Did all the other steps as you specified.

However, it still looks like it did not fix the issue.

After using the Rudder, the next mission causes the JOY_RZ Axis to be default again.

I was really hoping you were right  But it looks like it may be the default settings in the data.lua file that needs to be updated with TPR specific settings, I.e. Rudder Axis needs to be explicitly set to JOY_Z.

[LowRider88]

I should also mention that when I plug in both the TPR and my old CH Pro rudders, the latter is able to keep the default on JOY_Z before the TPR's Axis is used, and as a result prevents the TPR's initial kick left due to it defaulting to JOY_RZ.

[St4rgun]

Hold on for a second, I re-read your OP.

As you said: "Looking into the Axis controls for the rudder, it seems DCS defaults the rudder to the JOY_RZ axis, when the one it should use, and the one I assigned to it should be the JOY_Z axis."

So you are NOT assigning all the rudder axes for all planes you would like to fly MANUALLY, do you? Are you relying on the default mapping of DCS?

I always map all my HOTAS axis to the proper ones for each plane one-by-one by hand in DCS menu, carefully removing all the default bad bindings (like auto binding the throttle to rudder axes etc.). It should be done once per plane upon any hardware changes, but after that I can forget it.

[LowRider88]

3 hours ago, St4rgun said:

Hold on for a second, I re-read your OP.

As you said: "Looking into the Axis controls for the rudder, it seems DCS defaults the rudder to the JOY_RZ axis, when the one it should use, and the one I assigned to it should be the JOY_Z axis."

So you are NOT assigning all the rudder axes for all planes you would like to fly MANUALLY, do you? Are you relying on the default mapping of DCS?

I always map all my HOTAS axis to the proper ones for each plane one-by-one by hand in DCS menu, carefully removing all the default bad bindings (like auto binding the throttle to rudder axes etc.). It should be done once per plane upon any hardware changes, but after that I can forget it.

Thanks St4rgun for the deeper dive into my question.

To answer yours, yes, I manually assigned the axis for the Rudder.  There seems to be only 3 axes for the TPR, 1 for the Rudder, which I assigned to JOY_Z, and 2 for the toe brakes, which I manually assign to JOY_X, Y.  There should be no Axis for JOY_RZ, but this is what keeps getting reassigned to the Rudder Axis as default at the start of each mission, and only reverts to what I assigned to it, JOY_Z once I move the Rudder.  When I go to the Assign Axis view, both JOY_RZ and JOY_Z appear in the drop down, with the former appearing as default.  I can reselect JOY_Z, save it, go back and Assign Axis view will once again show JOY_RZ as the selection.

Something keeps defaulting the TPR to JOY_RZ.  I believe this is the data.lua file, since there is no explicit conditional default specifically for the TPR, while there are for other market rudders.

[St4rgun]

This JOY_RZ axis is really strange if your deviche should only have JOY_Z, JOY_X and JOY_Y.

Are you sure, that DCS detects the "phantom" axis, or maybe the rudder's driver reports something falsely?

Double checked the firmware and latest driver for your TPR? (https://support.thrustmaster.com/en/product/tpr-en/)

Are you using the T.A.R.G.E.T sowftware?

Did you use the Advanced calibration tool for the rudder?

[LowRider88]

25 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

This JOY_RZ axis is really strange if your deviche should only have JOY_Z, JOY_X and JOY_Y.

Are you sure, that DCS detects the "phantom" axis, or maybe the rudder's driver reports something falsely?

Double checked the firmware and latest driver for your TPR? (https://support.thrustmaster.com/en/product/tpr-en/)

Are you using the T.A.R.G.E.T sowftware?

Did you use the Advanced calibration tool for the rudder?

Thanks again St4rgun.

I cannot confirm how the driver works.

However, the Thrustmaster software I see (and as shown in your screenshot) makes no reference to the JOY_RZ Axis.

I am at work now and can't find the data.lua file path I am referring to but it should not be hard to find, if you do a windows file search on the DCS World sub directory for *.lua.  If you find it, you can open with Notepadd++, and see the default vs market axes assignments which I am referring to.  One is general, and is meant for joystick setups which include the stick, throttle and Rudder all in one, and so assigns the Rudder to JOY_RZ.  Since there is no TPR entry, the TPR seems to default to this, until you actually move it, then it takes the custom manual setting set up by user (me).

[St4rgun]

OK, it became much clearer for me.

So the question is: why there's no TPR entry for your device?

For me the "default.lua" is in the game folder under "\Config\Input\Aircrafts\Default\joystick\" which is OK.

Now in the user's Saved Games directory there should be .lua files for ech plane you already configured correctly.

Like for me the A-10C II input config lua looks like this, check out the "removed" line for the JOY_RZ, and the "added" for JOY_Z:

Filename: "\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input\A-10C II\joystick\T-Rudder {8D238D70-89B7-11eb-8001-444553540000}.diff.lua"

Content:

local diff = {
    ["axisDiffs"] = {
        ["a2001cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Pitch",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Y",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2002cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Roll",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_X",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2003cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Z",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Rudder",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_RZ",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2004cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Throttle Both",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Z",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2112cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["filter"] = {
                        ["curvature"] = {
                            [1] = 0,
                        },
                        ["deadzone"] = 0,
                        ["invert"] = false,
                        ["saturationX"] = 1,
                        ["saturationY"] = 1,
                        ["slider"] = true,
                    },
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Y",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Wheel Brake Left",
        },
        ["a2113cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["filter"] = {
                        ["curvature"] = {
                            [1] = 0,
                        },
                        ["deadzone"] = 0,
                        ["invert"] = false,
                        ["saturationX"] = 1,
                        ["saturationY"] = 1,
                        ["slider"] = true,
                    },
                    ["key"] = "JOY_X",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Wheel Brake Right",
        },
    },
}
return diff

 

So if you are using the rudder at the same USB port every time then the device enumeration should find it always and use the properly configured inputs regardless the setting in the default.lua file. If you also have the correct input config lua file in the Saved Games folder and still having the same problem then I run out of ideas...

[LowRider88]

4 hours ago, St4rgun said:

OK, it became much clearer for me.

So the question is: why there's no TPR entry for your device?

For me the "default.lua" is in the game folder under "\Config\Input\Aircrafts\Default\joystick\" which is OK.

Now in the user's Saved Games directory there should be .lua files for ech plane you already configured correctly.

Like for me the A-10C II input config lua looks like this, check out the "removed" line for the JOY_RZ, and the "added" for JOY_Z:

Filename: "\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input\A-10C II\joystick\T-Rudder {8D238D70-89B7-11eb-8001-444553540000}.diff.lua"

Content:

local diff = {
    ["axisDiffs"] = {
        ["a2001cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Pitch",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Y",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2002cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Roll",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_X",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2003cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Z",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Rudder",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_RZ",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2004cdnil"] = {
            ["name"] = "Throttle Both",
            ["removed"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Z",
                },
            },
        },
        ["a2112cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["filter"] = {
                        ["curvature"] = {
                            [1] = 0,
                        },
                        ["deadzone"] = 0,
                        ["invert"] = false,
                        ["saturationX"] = 1,
                        ["saturationY"] = 1,
                        ["slider"] = true,
                    },
                    ["key"] = "JOY_Y",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Wheel Brake Left",
        },
        ["a2113cdnil"] = {
            ["added"] = {
                [1] = {
                    ["filter"] = {
                        ["curvature"] = {
                            [1] = 0,
                        },
                        ["deadzone"] = 0,
                        ["invert"] = false,
                        ["saturationX"] = 1,
                        ["saturationY"] = 1,
                        ["slider"] = true,
                    },
                    ["key"] = "JOY_X",
                },
            },
            ["name"] = "Wheel Brake Right",
        },
    },
}
return diff

 

So if you are using the rudder at the same USB port every time then the device enumeration should find it always and use the properly configured inputs regardless the setting in the default.lua file. If you also have the correct input config lua file in the Saved Games folder and still having the same problem then I run out of ideas...

Yes, I also have the same type of file like you have which is specific to the TPR.  It is this file which DCS looks at once I move the TPR Rudder Axis.  But before I move it, DCS seems to first rely on the Default in data.lua.  So at the start of the game, before touching anything, I am almost thrown into a spin because of the kick left due to the default mapping to JOY_RZ.

If you are out of ideas, Thanks anyway for all of yours thus far.  It helps future people to distinguish between the different cases.

I believe now this is something for DCS to add to the default.lua file, I.e the vendor named TPR default entry.

Edited December 31, 2021 by LowRider88

[St4rgun]

What is interesting, that I also had this problem exactly as you described some time ago, but I never checked the assign controls when this happened to see that DCS applied the default JOY_RZ axis instead of my settings. I beleived also, that something is wrong with the actual DCS OB and I was only able to left kick a bit at mission start. Sometimes the issue disappeared after next DCS update.

Sometimes I had this issue again, sometimes it wanished. But right now I am aware of the auto-calibration feature of my TFRP rudder, that was unknown for me before. Maybe this feature caused that before any movement the rudder reports some non-existing axes, that's why DCS detects it wrong.

I started the other topic because the weird behaviour of my toe brakes and I also suspected the new OB. But I did everything to eliminate the rudder hardware side error and it was a success - for me, and with TFRP. Now everything is working well. Maybe it was a bad conincidence of OB and a possible Win10 patch which related to the device issue.

In this phase only some dev can have any more ideas. Maybe we should ask @BIGNEWY?

[Lange_666]

@LowRider88: You don't happen to have the option "Synchronize cockpit controls with HOTAS controls at mission start" under MISC. ticked do you?
If yes, untick it. Having it ticked can cause the problem you discribe at mission start. It's bugged...

[LowRider88]

4 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

@LowRider88: You don't happen to have the option "Synchronize cockpit controls with HOTAS controls at mission start" under MISC. ticked do you?
If yes, untick it. Having it ticked can cause the problem you discribe at mission start. It's bugged...

Hey, you fixed it!

Thanks very much! Lange_666 for the advice.  It seems to work now.  I am still testing but this seems to be the solution

 

Thanks St4rgun also for sticking with it thus far.

Great to have proactive, helpful people on this forum!! 

[Lange_666]

I had the same problem when entering a mission (hot start), sometimes i would have throttle with the throttle at idle or if i applied throttle the airplane would not move because the wheelbrakes were applied although i didn't. If you use control overlay at start you can see the anomalie.
Moving one axis cured the problem. I guess the sim somehow remembers the last input and re-apply this when you enter again with the option to synchronize controls ticked. Since then i have it unticked and did not have the problem. 

[LowRider88]

8 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

I had the same problem when entering a mission (hot start), sometimes i would have throttle with the throttle at idle or if i applied throttle the airplane would not move because the wheelbrakes were applied although i didn't. If you use control overlay at start you can see the anomalie.
Moving one axis cured the problem. I guess the sim somehow remembers the last input and re-apply this when you enter again with the option to synchronize controls ticked. Since then i have it unticked and did not have the problem. 

It's an interesting issue.  I still suspect the long term fix is the data.lua file, since it does contain a default section for controls and different entries for other market Rudder vendors.  But I am happy with this workaround since I can fly now, without the initial kick.

Do you know what the purpose is for that checkbox we disabled and when it is useful to enable?

Thanks again for your advice.  You made my New Year's Day

BTW, Happy 2022!

[Lange_666]

It should synchronize the state of the airplane's controls to your controls when you enter the cockpit.
However, it doesn't work as intended and sets the airplane controls somehow to the last known state before you quit the game the previous session.
I don't know if this is entirely correct but that's +/- my experience. I did read somewhere on the forum to not use that option and since then all is fine.
I didn't find the need to re-enable it again.
 

[TOViper]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:33 PM, Lange_666 said:

@LowRider88: You don't happen to have the option "Synchronize cockpit controls with HOTAS controls at mission start" under MISC. ticked do you?
If yes, untick it. Having it ticked can cause the problem you discribe at mission start. It's bugged...

Is @Eagle Dynamics aware of that problem?
I am used to use the SYNC function all the time, for some reasons.

IMHO the problem is not "solved", the problem is just beeing worked around.