Please provide an option for less cockpit shaking at hard turns

[lqqfrank]

I appreciate the efforts Heatblur have done trying to provide a so close real sim for F14, it’s a work of art. I know in a hard turn or any situations with a high AOA in a relatively low speed the aircraft must be shaking, while I still expect there to be an option to turn off or turn less of the shaking.

Because we are still sitting at a still chair without any body feeling, and secondly the frame rate is relatively too low (even worse at VR environment) to compare with the real world, no matter how advanced the computer is assembled nowadays. That, makes the actually shake of the cockpit a “not-necessarily-simulating” factor for current game experience.

So really wish we can turn off or lower the shaking level. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[captain_dalan]

That shake is there to save your life, least you disregard it and depart the plane  

[IronMike]

Thank you for the suggestion, unfortunately that is not something we are considering. The cockpit shake and buffeting has been carefully tuned to provide you specific feedback during flight.

[lqqfrank]

Ok, thanks for the reply. Will practice more to feel it and correct my maneuvering.

[Caldero]

Hi

There are solutions for the lack of body feeling, for example, I own a Simshaker Jetpad. Like everything in this hobby, it is not cheap but it adds a lot of inmersion and real "body shake"

Regards  

[IronMike]

6 hours ago, lqqfrank said:

Ok, thanks for the reply. Will practice more to feel it and correct my maneuvering.

The beauty of it, is that it becomes second nature if you give it a bit of time. The plane distinctively "talks" to you through these buffets, rattling and shakes and in time you will not even need to look at your accelerometer, airspeed indicator, etc.. Especially in a dogfight this comes in very handy, but also during Case1s, etc it lets you assess the state of your aircraft much quicker. It is good to make dedicated tests for this for yourself. Pull 2G at 350 - 400 kts, observe how it buffets and rattles, then 2.5G, 3G, 3.5G and at different speeds and so on. The more you do this, the more you will "hear" the aircraft "talk" to you. It is very, very handy to have that kind of input figure in to your situational awareness. Happy flying and land safe!

Edited January 13, 2022 by IronMike

[FlankerKiller]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

The beauty of it, is that it becomes second nature if you give it a bit of time. The plane distinctively "talks" to you through these buffets, rattling and shakes and in time you will not even need to look at your accelerometer, airspeed indicator, etc.. Especially in a dogfight this comes in very handy, but also during Case1s, etc it lets you assess the state of your aircraft much quicker. It is good to make dedicated tests for this for yourself. Pull 2G at 350 - 400 kts, observe how it buffets and rattles, then 2.5G, 3G, 3.5G and at different speeds and so on. The more you do this, the more you will "hear" the aircraft "talk" to you. It is very, very handy to have that kind of input figure in to your situational awareness. Happy flying and land safe!

 

While I agree with you. And while the shaking and buffeting are in line with similar aircraft, ie the FC3 F-15, "the other team" offers an option to tune the shaking to the users liking on the Mig-21. I know your not "considering this at this time". But it's not hard to implementet. I've modified the file myself on other aircraft before. So maybe consider that we the user might know what we need and what we like as feedback from our virtual aircraft. Love you guys, thank you so much for making the Tomcat a reality. It is probably my favorite jet still. 

 

[IronMike]

1 minute ago, FlankerKiller said:

While I agree with you. And while the shaking and buffeting are in line with similar aircraft, ie the FC3 F-15, "the other team" offers an option to tune the shaking to the users liking on the Mig-21. I know your not "considering this at this time". But it's not hard to implementet. I've modified the file myself on other aircraft before. So maybe consider that we the user might know what we need and what we like as feedback from our virtual aircraft. Love you guys, thank you so much for making the Tomcat a reality. It is probably my favorite jet still. 

 

Thank you for your input, but it is a matter of realism, too, to be levelled across the board. That, unfortunately, is not up to the user to decide, but is done in accordance to real life data, SME input, etc. Beyond that, mods come in to play, which we do not mind at all. However the shaking, buffeting and rattling is integral to our FM - how other modules approach it, and/or if they deem it optional, is up to them ofc, but it is not a path we choose for the Tomcat or any of our other modules for that matter. Thank you for your kind understanding. 

[lqqfrank]

2 hours ago, IronMike said:

The beauty of it, is that it becomes second nature if you give it a bit of time. The plane distinctively "talks" to you through these buffets, rattling and shakes and in time you will not even need to look at your accelerometer, airspeed indicator, etc.. Especially in a dogfight this comes in very handy, but also during Case1s, etc it lets you assess the state of your aircraft much quicker. It is good to make dedicated tests for this for yourself. Pull 2G at 350 - 400 kts, observe how it buffets and rattles, then 2.5G, 3G, 3.5G and at different speeds and so on. The more you do this, the more you will "hear" the aircraft "talk" to you. It is very, very handy to have that kind of input figure in to your situational awareness. Happy flying and land safe!

 

Take this comment. Convincing and sounds achievable with hours and hours practicing and feeling it. 

And hey, thanks for coming back again for more thoughts and sharing from designers' view. It's helpful.

Now... it's time for me to jump into the cockpit to "feel" it with these in mind...

[IronMike]

1 minute ago, lqqfrank said:

Take this comment. Convincing and sounds achievable with hours and hours practicing and feeling it. 

And hey, thanks for coming back again for more thoughts and sharing from designers' view. It's helpful.

Now... it's time for me to jump into the cockpit to "feel" it with these in mind...

My pleasure, and once it makes "click", you will see how helpful it is and not bothering at all. Ofc, opinions will always differ, but like I said, in a non fly by wire aircraft such feedback is absolutely crucial and integral to the FM, and we went to great lengths to tune it to what it is. The longer you practice with it, the more it will make sense to you in the long run! Happy flying again!

[FlankerKiller]

The Mig-21 is your module, or was. I get it. I disagree, kinda. I think that the Cockpit shake value should be tunable globally. But that's my opinion. I think the reason it can be so distracting is because the effect is so subdued in the Viper, and Hornet. Particularly the hornet. Now to be fair actual Hornet drivers have complained that the jet doesn't give enough auditory feedback. So maybe that is on ED, and maybe that's a discussion to have with them. Or again let the user who is getting the feedback decide. You aren't going to do it, and that is your prerogative. I think it's a mistake, and should be user adjustable across all modules. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I am glad you used Camara shake to model it though, instead of the horrendous panel shake that ED used on the Huey. That I do mod out. Still the cat is one of, if not, my favorites. So don't think I'm being too critical. And again the shake level is about the same as it is in the F-15, which it should be. So no one can really say that it's over exaggerated. Just again if you come from the F-18, it's going to surprise you. 

 

P.S. Now kindly please get the Erofighter built. So you can make the A-6. I'll definitely be buying both. Especially after seeing what Jester can do with the targeting pod. 

[lunaticfringe]

26 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

The Mig-21 is your module, or was.

It was not.  The only individual at HB that worked on the Fishbed was Cobra.  

Different teams, different design goals and methods.  

[IronMike]

16 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

The Mig-21 is your module, or was. I get it. I disagree, kinda. I think that the Cockpit shake value should be tunable globally. But that's my opinion. I think the reason it can be so distracting is because the effect is so subdued in the Viper, and Hornet. Particularly the hornet. Now to be fair actual Hornet drivers have complained that the jet doesn't give enough auditory feedback. So maybe that is on ED, and maybe that's a discussion to have with them. Or again let the user who is getting the feedback decide. You aren't going to do it, and that is your prerogative. I think it's a mistake, and should be user adjustable across all modules. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I am glad you used Camara shake to model it though, instead of the horrendous panel shake that ED used on the Huey. That I do mod out. Still the cat is one of, if not, my favorites. So don't think I'm being too critical. And again the shake level is about the same as it is in the F-15, which it should be. So no one can really say that it's over exaggerated. Just again if you come from the F-18, it's going to surprise you. 

 

P.S. Now kindly please get the Erofighter built. So you can make the A-6. I'll definitely be buying both. Especially after seeing what Jester can do with the targeting pod. 

You will be happy to hear that it will get tweaked a bit in time. After the recent FM changes the fine tuning of it in response to the FM is a tad exaggerated in some parts, so it will get smoothened out still with SME feedback. This does not mean that it will be much of a difference, or that some may even notice it, but I think you will appreciate the changes yet to come. As for your opinion - that is of course an absolute valid opinion, and you should know that we always keep such input in the back of our minds. We are not of the type who are 100% unwilling to change to B once we said A, if at some point we see reason to change or have pondered something further, etc. So, sharing opinions and wishes is very important. There are always many opinions ofc, there are many inputs to be considered and in the end we need to make an informed decision what we think works best for our modules. So, it may not always be implemented, but rest assured: it will always be listened to and taken aboard. And we appreciate your feedback a lot! Thanks again!

[FlankerKiller]

Thanks for the reply. And let me reiterate again that I am definitely nitpicking here. The Cat is an absolute masterpiece of a module, simulating and absolute masterpiece of aeronautical engineering. It is one of, if not my favorite module to fly and fight in. The tech level is perfect for enjoyment, and your team brought it to life in a spectacular way. And you literally changed DCS while doing it. Something no other third party has done so far. You opened the door to multi crew aircraft in single player. Nether the Hind or the Apache would be happening with now if you hadn't show that it can be done. Also wake turbulence are ,to me, one of the most game changing additions to core DCS since the introduction of the advanced flight model. Keep up the good work, and I'll keep buying everything your studio releases. Cheers. 

[IronMike]

23 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Thanks for the reply. And let me reiterate again that I am definitely nitpicking here. The Cat is an absolute masterpiece of a module, simulating and absolute masterpiece of aeronautical engineering. It is one of, if not my favorite module to fly and fight in. The tech level is perfect for enjoyment, and your team brought it to life in a spectacular way. And you literally changed DCS while doing it. Something no other third party has done so far. You opened the door to multi crew aircraft in single player. Nether the Hind or the Apache would be happening with now if you hadn't show that it can be done. Also wake turbulence are ,to me, one of the most game changing additions to core DCS since the introduction of the advanced flight model. Keep up the good work, and I'll keep buying everything your studio releases. Cheers. 

Thank you for your very kind words, they are much appreciated!

[FlankerKiller]

3 hours ago, IronMike said:

Thank you for your very kind words, they are much appreciated!

Thank you for making the Tomcat. I've spent the last 21 years of my life as an Air Force aircraft maintainer. DCS let's me peak behind to curtain, and see how the other half lives. The Tomcat let's me play out my child hood fantasies of being maverick. I only got to see F-14s IRL a few times before they were retired. And now they are all but gone. Your team preserved they're memory, and let's us get a chance to see what they were all about.  

[captain_dalan]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:22 AM, IronMike said:

You will be happy to hear that it will get tweaked a bit in time. 

And that's how you make on camper happy but another one sad  
Just like the first major change, i actually prefer it when shaking is perceivable and has an actual mechanical benefit 

[IronMike]

5 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

And that's how you make on camper happy but another one sad  
Just like the first major change, i actually prefer it when shaking is perceivable and has an actual mechanical benefit 

Don't worry, it will only become more accurate, not less immersive.

[FlankerKiller]

23 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

And that's how you make on camper happy but another one sad  
Just like the first major change, i actually prefer it when shaking is perceivable and has an actual mechanical benefit 

And that is why I believe it should be adjustable by the user in the special options menu. As it truly is a subjective matter of individual taste. 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

And that is why I believe it should be adjustable by the user in the special options menu. As it truly is a subjective matter of individual taste. 

It's like asking for a FM change. They say it's how the aircraft shakes and the SME confirms it so how could it be user adjustable what aircraft does?

[FlankerKiller]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

It's like asking for a FM change. They say it's how the aircraft shakes and the SME confirms it so how could it be user adjustable what aircraft does?

No it is not. It's a value in a file. I've edited it myself before. Hell the Mig-21 gives you a slider in the Special Options screen. But if they don't want to give a slider they don't want to. And that is fine. But doing so would definitely not change the way the aircraft preforms, or handles in any way. No one outside of the affected aircraft would even be able to tell. Its a way for the jet to "talk to you". All aircraft have camara shake set for them. 

[captain_dalan]

I actually agree with you, despite disagreeing on the topic of changing it. Simulating haptic feedback is a highly subjective topic, and largely falls into what can be called artistic license. Like sound of engines inside cockpit, over wing airflow sound inside cockpit, button clicks, throttle changes... You'd barely hear (if at all) most of those inside the cockpit with your helmet on, yet, their presence or absence in the sim, make a huge difference. I understand the home-cockpit builders and the civies that want none of that in DCS, but these planes are hardly flyable with them and i'd argue, flying them by instrument and muscle memory only is even less "realistic" (what ever that means) then flying them on "feel". 

[Victory205]

It’s going to be tweaked. Everyone must be patient (including me) and understand that the team is busy creating reams of RCS (Really Cool Stuff) at the moment.

The buffeting (not shaking, you aren’t watching a horror film) will provide nuanced feedback in due course, just like the real aircraft.