Winwing Orion HOTAS review

[Bwaze]

Old school reviews with photos are apparently a lost art, new hardware mostly just gets Youtube review by people who were given items for free. To break with this tradition I give you a short review with link to lots of photos of my Winwing Orion HOTAS F-18.

I have ordered my unit on December 8., when Winwing announced their big discount - it was offered for $500 before, but this time they lowered it to $400 (this offer is still running as of mid January, but most of the time the shop has no stock). I also ordered an extension, although site has a warning: "Only use with Super Libra joystick base" - several users have reported using it without problems. Extension is $50, and it also raises the shipping cost quite a bit - shipping HOTAS with FedEx to EU costs about $80, with extension this increases to $113.

I won't bore you with the shipping delays, I got my unit after one month - but after that time it arrived with apology form FedEx, without any customs fee and without VAT, so I'm not complaining too much.

I already have a working Thrustmaster Warthog, and since November also the Hornet stick, so this is the perfect opportunity to compare these two HOTAS systems.

Links to photoalbums (click on the link for Google Photo album with lots of images in higher resolution):




1. Winwing Orion unboxing



2. Winwing Orion Assembly



3. Winwing Orion HOTAS



4. Winwing Orion stick



5. Winwing Orion stick extension



6. Winwing Orion throttle



7. Winwing Orion and Thrustmaster Warthog with Hornet

8. Winwing Orion throttle repair

This concludes the first part. :)

Edited January 16, 2022 by Bwaze

[Bwaze]

Since most of the basic stuff was already covered to death by various Youtube reviews, I intended to describe the feeling of Winwing F-18 stick base, compared to Thrustmaster Warthog stick with Hornet grip.

Since descriptions like "Winwing feels softer" are very vague, I tried to put it into numbers - to measure the force needed to deflect the joystick. But just measuring the force needed to fully deflect the stick tell just one thing. Most of you are aware of unique gimbal Warthog base uses - it requires quite a lot of force to move the stick from it's zero position. So I tried to represent this visually. Of course I don't have any professional equipment for measurement, but simple "baggage scale" (or fishing scale, or even bow draw weight scale) is usable for this. Most of them are accurate to 5 gram under 10 kg of force, I bought one that has scale which would face the camera when filmed, and which had option to turn off the "lock" mode, so the scale doesn't suddenly decide it's done measuring.

Measuring the forces, image is underexposed, so the dispays are visible. I used old simple VKB JoyTester so I could record the axis value and check that I'm deflecting joystick exactly on the axis - this was quite simple for the Winwing but very hard for Warthog due to it's gimbal.

Also a note, Warthog had all the parts of gimbal sanded, cleaned and lubricated with Nyogel 767A, and it has teflon ring instead of rubber ring - this constricted movement of stick a bit in the extremes, especially in the corners.




So I recorded videos, in pairs for backup and check of accuracy, for all 4 sides of both joysticks and also two diagonals, and I also did all this twice - once again for joysticks with extensions. On Winwing I used it's original extension in it's shortest form (11 cm), on Warthog I used carbon fibre 15 cm extension. And then copied values from video to spreadsheet, and make a chart.

So, some interesting results:

First chart (I chose joystick movement to the right) shows joystick value vs. deflection - It's just a test if sensors are linear. Here we can see that Winwing comes with a bit of a deadzone, about 1 degree. as we will see, to the left and to the right. - Edit: this deadzone is on by default, but you can change the size of deadzone, even to zero in SimApp Pro Winwing software: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/291199-winwing-orion-hotas-review/?do=findComment&comment=4929823

Also, stick moves to 20 degrees, but sensor maxes out at 18 degrees - and it was calibrated after firmware update.

Second chart shows force in kg. vs. deflection. It would be wrong to say that you need 1.735 kg to deflect Winwing fully to the right - last two degrees of movement aren't registered, you only need 1.44 kg for maximum deflection.

Interesting thing is the extreme steep rise of force needed to move Warthog from zero position, and then very linear forcefro 2 degrees to about 18 degrees. I didn't expect it would show so clearly.





 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Bwaze

[Bwaze]

Third and fourth charts are Winwing stick with 11 cm extension and Warthog stick with 15 cm extension, again movement to the right, first measuring joystick value vs. deflection, second force in kg. vs. deflection:



Joystick values show same story as with unextended sticks - Winwing has a deadzone, and it maxes out before the stick hits it's limit.

But the fourth chart is interesting. Warthog again shows this sharp increase of needed force, and then it completely levels. This is of course also result of measuring the forces quite slowly - I pulled very slowly and took about 10 seconds to deflect the stick from 0 to 20 degrees - if I would be quicker, there would be also the resistance of Nyogel showing in Warthog chart, it resists and damps quick movement.

And the forces needed with unextended vs. extended sticks? We see that Winwing needs 1.44 kg, but with extension only 0.84 kg to reach maximum value (not maximum deflection). Force is almost halved. And Warthog needs 1.425 kg unextended (with sharp rise at the end, this could be effect of teflon ring), but with extension only 0.56 kg! This is probably also the effect of heavy grip on a 15 cm extension - some people use stronger springs (such as those offered by Sahaj) - but I don't know how that would affect the "breakout" force near the center.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Bwaze

[Bwaze]

Fifth and sixth chart show just the symmetry of Winwing Orion joystick, left and right movement in same chart, first joystick value vs. deflection, second shows force in kg. vs. deflection.

I was quite interested in that, since Virpil has some problems with it's joystick base MongoosT-50CM2 which uses single cam per axis, like Winwing Orion. The difference from max. left force (1.35 kg) to max. right force (1. 44 kg) is only 6.6%. Some Virpil users reported 50% and more of a difference, Virpil was offering free replacement of cams.

And lastly for now, symmetry of Thrustmaster Warthog stick, left and right movement in same chart, first joystick value vs. deflection, second shows force in kg. vs. deflection.

We can see very symmetrical forces needed just until the end (that bit isn't very reliably measured). I was surprised, since the mechanism includes lots of sliding of plastic against plastic, plastic against metal rods, I had hand sanded various surfaces inside...

[Bwaze]

I'd also like to mention a few negative points of Winwing Orion. Metal castings are obviously hand finished on some edges. On some stick and throttle grips I've seen in photos this is really nicely done, but on mine it looks quite rough in places:





I have asked hte Winwing support about that, and they answered: "It's normal and intended design." Ok.

"Not great, not terrible." It's apparently draw of luck if yours was done by skilled worker or by a rookie.

Also, the throttle came with it's front slider (A3) rubbing on something the front movement. Support suggested I disassemble the slider mechanism and sand the part under the nut that provides friction, but after a bit of inspection I discovered the slider actually rubs on the left side of the cut-out of the upper plate, so I just loosened the two screws that hold it to the top, pushed it to the right a bit, and tightened them - that repaired the rubbing completely.

[BuzzU]

Very good test. Thanks for doing it.

 

Now that you have the Orion. Do you want to sell the Warthog?

[marcwoolery]

Im wondering if the Throttle is useable for A10C and F18 (and more)  I see A10 and F15 stamped on some throttles but not clear how that applies - I assume only for certain switches / buttons.

I really like the TM Warthog throttle but it seems most of the options are toggle switches... kind of dated even though A10C replica.  Maybe Virple Mongose $$

[BuzzU]

I like the Warthog throttle, except for the slew. However, the Orion throttle looks like a step up.

[BuzzU]

On 1/16/2022 at 4:05 PM, BuzzU said:

Very good test. Thanks for doing it.

 

Now that you have the Orion. Do you want to sell the Warthog?

I guess the silence means no?

[rob10]

9 hours ago, marcwoolery said:

Im wondering if the Throttle is useable for A10C and F18 (and more)  I see A10 and F15 stamped on some throttles but not clear how that applies - I assume only for certain switches / buttons.

I really like the TM Warthog throttle but it seems most of the options are toggle switches... kind of dated even though A10C replica.  Maybe Virple Mongose $$

Yes it works great for the F18.  I ignore the labels and have piece of thin black cardboard over it with actual functions I have assigned labelled on it.  Generally speaking you can assign binding as you like to whatever switch in DCS.  Some are easier to assign since the 3 way switches actually send a signal for the middle position (so you don't have to play in the .lua files to make it work).

[Bwaze]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:05 AM, BuzzU said:

Very good test. Thanks for doing it.

 

Now that you have the Orion. Do you want to sell the Warthog?

I have my Warthog since 2010, low serial number, I have repaired it several times, replaced some switches, sanded the joystick base gimbal and lubricated it with Nyogel 767A (and then repeated the process when I replaced the gimbal), installed teflon ring instead of rubber one, replaced throttle slew with Deltasimelectronics one, lubricated throttle bearings... I bought the Hornet grip and replaced the Weapon Select switch twice (the replacement switch was also busted)... So I think it's now better than new even though I'm using it for 12 years! Of course buyers wouldn't see it like that, and prices here in Europe are quite low, right now you can get it new for around 400 EUR.

So I think I'll rather keep it. Maybe one day it will be more sought after - I sold my Thrustmaster Cougar three years ago for much more I paid a long, long time ago.

[BuzzU]

1 hour ago, Bwaze said:

I have my Warthog since 2010, low serial number, I have repaired it several times, replaced some switches, sanded the joystick base gimbal and lubricated it with Nyogel 767A (and then repeated the process when I replaced the gimbal), installed teflon ring instead of rubber one, replaced throttle slew with Deltasimelectronics one, lubricated throttle bearings... I bought the Hornet grip and replaced the Weapon Select switch twice (the replacement switch was also busted)... So I think it's now better than new even though I'm using it for 12 years! Of course buyers wouldn't see it like that, and prices here in Europe are quite low, right now you can get it new for around 400 EUR.

So I think I'll rather keep it. Maybe one day it will be more sought after - I sold my Thrustmaster Cougar three years ago for much more I paid a long, long time ago.

Ok, no problem. It didn't hurt to ask. I found a new one for $549 shipped. That's as good as it gets here in the US.

I'm still trying to decide if I want to concentrate on the the A-10C II or Hornet. I'll get the Orion for the Hornet. It's in stock now but that won't last long. I'll sleep on it tonight and buy something tomorrow.

I see a lot of guys complain that the Orion is stiff. Does it feel as stiff as a Warthog? I'm talking about no extensions on either one.

Thanks.

[rob10]

The Grip/base or the throttle?  The TM base is VERY stiff (esp with no extension) by default.  With the green Sajah spring it's much more reasonable.  I don't really use the Orion grip/base (initially the only way to get the throttle was as a set), but I did try it out when I got it and I don't remember it being that stiff.  The Orion throttle is adjustable and you can make it really loose through stiff as desired (and I think the TMWH is adjustable too).  Personally I'd go for the Orion throttle for both as the switch options are better over the TMWH.  My preferred grip/base option currently is the WH A-10/F16 grip if you're mostly doing them or the F18 grip for the F18 if you're leaning to it, with the Virpil WarBRD base.  Not exactly a cheap option, but if you're going to get a lot of use out of it and can spend the money, it's worth it IMHO. 

[BuzzU]

Rob............I have been at this awhile. 5 warthogs, VKB, and Virpil. I'm curious about the WinWing though. I've tried the green spring and an extesion on the Warthogs and never have been satisfied with it. All it has going for it is if I fly the A-10C II. It just seems right.

 

I am leaning towards the Hornet. 20 years with BMS is enough of the Viper. I find the Hornet more interesting now. I'm even considering the high end WinWing but that throttle is kind of bulky but the long throw is tempting. 

I should just save the money and buy the Orion. I can add the panels if I need more buttons. What am I saying? We always need more buttons.

[Bwaze]

7 hours ago, BuzzU said:

 

I see a lot of guys complain that the Orion is stiff. Does it feel as stiff as a Warthog? I'm talking about no extensions on either one.

Thanks.

Never heard that it is too stiff, some people mention that it is too soft (near center) for extension or mounting Thrustmaster grips (which you can with adapter), so many have opted for Super Lubra base instead. 

 

It is "too stiff" for the suction cups if your desk isn't smooth as glass and cleaned, it's really meant to be mounted. Or at least screwed to a larger base. 

I find it very good for my taste - if it would be stiffer near center it would surely loose some smoothness it now has. 

[Bwaze]

Some more results, this time I'm comparing forces between straight back pulls and diagonal back / right pulls of Winwing Orion F-18 stick and Thrustmaster Warthog base + Hornet stick. Results are for unextended sticks.

I was really interested in these results, since base mechanisms couldn't be more different.

Winwing Orion uses one cam + spring for each axis:





And the result, blue line represents diagonal pull. Distance (and angle) to the corner is of course greater than distance to the side, and so is the force:




Thrustmaster Warthog gimbal is unique, spherical gimbal makes the direction of pull largely irrelevant.



But pulling to the corner still results in longer travel / greater angle (blue line).



Difference in percentages:

To pull Winwing stick to the corner you have to compress both X and Y springs, but at an angle, so it's not simple addition of both spring forces (that would result in about 3 kg of force)... Max force for right pull is 1.44 kg (at 18 degrees when it reaches max value), max force for back / right pull is 2,195 kg - 52% more.

In contrast max force right pull of Thrustmaster is 1.425 kg, max force for back / right pull is 1.415 kg - about the same. If you look at the curve you do need a bit more force to move the stick to the corner, before the force starts to increase (probably due to the thicker PTFE ring that restricts movements at the extremes somewhat) - but only a bit more.

So the numbers show clearly what I feel when moving the sticks. With Warthog you really don't feel any axes - it does not matter in which direction you pull the stick, force is the same. This has it's pluses - crossing axis line isn't problematic - if you remember Thrustmaster Cougar hard transitions you know what I'm talking about. The negative is that you can't feel if you're pulling just on the X or just on the Y axis. Is this a problem? Usually no, you compensate by moving the stick if the reaction isn't what you intended. The only hard transition in whole range of motion is centre spot, into which the stick "falls" and needs a lot of force to move out of. Even with extended Warthog transitioning over the centre isn't smooth.

With Winwing Orion stick you do feel separate X and Y axes, and you can by feel pull joystick just on one axis. But in contrast with Thrustmaster Cougar the transition is really soft, so it's not problematic when moving from one side to the other, even for small movements when flying in formation or AAR. Of course the feel changes with extended stick - extra 11 cm makes the forces when transitioning the axis line even weaker so it's easier to accidentally pull a bit off the axis - but you still feel it, so the error is usually small (compared to Warthog where you can veer quite far from the axis by accident). 

And finally, comparison of Winwing diagonal pull to Thrustmaster diagonal pull:

We can see that Winwing forces are weaker near the centre, but they overtake the Warthog before the midpoint, and are much higher in corner: 2.195 kg vs 1.415 kg (a bit from the corner Thrustmaster needs just 1.165 kg). Almost twice the force! This is also the reason why Winwing Orion, although sold with suction cups and marketed as desktop joystick, is really much better solidly mounted. And although a lot of people are saying Thrustmaster Warthog has too high spring force, this I think targets steep force increase in first 3- 5 degrees, not force at maximum deflection - Winwing is in comparison very smooth and easy to reposition.

[Bwaze]

And another chart, I wondered if there's something to see in larger resolution chart. All charts previously had data points at every degree. Like this one, Winwing vs. Thrustmaster, force in kg. vs. deflection, movement to the right:

 

I have gathered data points for movement to back for both sticks at half degree resolution, also with bigger chart:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/v4YPJiT.jpg[/img

 

Even at half degree of resolution we see how sharp the increase of force is in Thrustmaster. The non-linearity of graph is perhaps due to handheld measuring, and also the speed of pull vs. the speed of refresh on measuring scale. I could get more accurate results by constructing a jig which would hold the scales and pull it back on rails with linear rail screw. But I don't think I would gain anything relevant by that, and it would take a lot of time.
 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bwaze

[Cerulean]

This is a great review. I am giving serious thought to replacing my beloved Warthog stick with the Winwing F-16EX, but only if the upgrade is a substantial improvement in quality.  I was going to order one a couple weeks back but could not find any reviews as the product is so new.  I know this is a subjective question, but how would you compare the general "feel" and sense of accuracy you get from the Winwing Orion base compared to the Warthog stick's base?  I am asking because I keep hearing of issues with stiction and sticky components. Either Thrustmaster has gotten better at producing the Warthog bases or I just got super lucky because my own is buttery smooth and the spring is not that heavy.

[Bwaze]

I have seen just one report of stiction of Winwing Orion joystick base (on Discord), but I think the user opened up the base, found out the screws that hold cams weren't tightened properly and sorted it out. And I've read that some have had stiction or even grinding problems with throttle arms, but it was usually clearly an improperly tightened or askew mechanism.

I must say my unit doesn't have any problems, the stick is really butter smooth.

My Thrustmaster Warthog had quite a bit of stiction (if i stopped moving the stick and then wanted to advance, it really needed quite a lot of extra force), but sanding all the plastic parts and lubricating them with Nyogel 767A really helped with this and added viscous damping (a bit of "hydraulic" resistance to the jittery movement).

Right now I haven't opened or messed with Winwing Orion joystick base, and compared to my Warthog it is really very easy to move. Especially from the centre position (due to the Warthog's strong centering force of strong spring and gimbal geometry), but even in other positions it lacks the damping the Nyogel 767A provides in Warthog. I don't miss it right now, I might begin to experiment later on - you can dampen the movements of Orion stick by lubricating all the sliding surfaces with Nyogel - interfaces of washers and cams etc., not by lubricating surface between cam and bearing as some have tried.

But Winwing springs aren't weak - cam geometry provides quite linear increase of force, as you can see from diagrams above, and stick forces are generally greater than in Warthog when you're over 50% of deflection, and at extremes you're quite a bit above Warthog force. But even very close to maximum input you can "draw nice circles", there is no binding, roughness, stickiness... I don't have any experience with Virpil or VKB stick bases, but I can't imagine greater smoothness. But Orion has no adjustability, only one spring force, no damping or friction adjustment, and large throw (20 degrees to every side), so it's perhaps not suitable for stick extensions, unless you don't mind soft spring forces with weakly defined centre and axis lines.

[Cerulean]

Thanks for a thorough and well thought out opinion. I think I am going to go ahead and order the stick, but I'm going to pass on the throttle. I'm entirely happy with the TM throttle.

[SailorJerrys]

Sorry to revive this, y'all! Just curious on some of your guys opinions: I recently dug back into the Hornet and have been loving it. I fly using an old X52 Pro that I've had for six or seven years now, and it's served me very well. (Very few issues with it, though the potentiometers have always given me grief, they're very twitchy.) (I should add, I'm also looking to start flying the warthog and mirage, so I need more controls...!)

Anyways, I've got some expendable cash that I can drop on getting myself some new hardware (which really should go to a new GPU, but lets be real, they're not worth their price atm.) so I've been considering a new stick and throttle. At first I was browsing for a Warthog, which... in reality would be about the same as what my other options were. But then I thought... What about a VKB Gladiator with the Premium grip, and the WinWing FA18 throttle? But after reading this review and seeing a lot of you Warthog owners saying they might jump on the WinWing Hornet stick, I'm really curious if I should consider just jumping on the WinWing FA18 HOTAS set when it drops back into stock later this week?

 

Any thoughts, guys? Or should I just stick with my Gladiator plan? This is going to be the first major upgrade for my flight gear, and I definitely want something solid that will last me a good time, even if I gotta put in a tiny bit of work to make it better. (I mainly play off my desk, but I might consider getting some desk mounts.)

Edited February 11, 2022 by SailorJerrys
Adding context

[Bwaze]

I have absolutely no experience with VKB or with Virpil (apart from the Baur rudder pedals, which are similar to Virpil ACE Interceptor rudder pedals).

But as far as I know, VKB Gladiator Premium is their "basic" unit. The prices reflect that, but it isn't just the scaled down stick gimbal, everything in the stick is more budget oriented, from buttons to hats...

[SailorJerrys]

33 minutes ago, Bwaze said:

I have absolutely no experience with VKB or with Virpil (apart from the Baur rudder pedals, which are similar to Virpil ACE Interceptor rudder pedals).

But as far as I know, VKB Gladiator Premium is their "basic" unit. The prices reflect that, but it isn't just the scaled down stick gimbal, everything in the stick is more budget oriented, from buttons to hats...

Yeah I realize that, having checked it all out properly...

I watched some review videos on the Orion and I'm really happy with how it looks and also with the insane price that it's got right now... And with that being said, I've also been considering getting the Orion FA/18 throttle, but getting the Super Libra base with FA/18 grip combo, as opposed to the pure Orion set, since the Super Libra has that perfect dead center and the exchangeable cams/springs. That being said, you seem pretty happy with the Orion base itself...!

[Bwaze]

Yeah, I'm happy. In ideal world I'd wish for a bit more centring force near the centre with extended stick, maybe I'll try to find stronger springs - gimbal seems sturdy enough to support this.

I have also considered Super Libra stick base, but the increased price and increased shipping cost was really a bit too far. And at least for me the single cam design really works - stick is really smooth when transitioning through the centre of axes, some users report they can't get their Super Libra bases to do that (user error or just nature of two cam gimbal?).

 

[MustangSally]

My libra is perfectly smooth at the center. You have to spend time adjusting the cams but once done ther's no issues.