AI A-4 Skyhawk and an idea for better mod support

[upyr1]

I know the community skyhawk team have shot down the possibility of making it an official module, and I don't expect anyone would have plans to tuch the A-4 due to this reason. However I don't see any reason not to have an AI Skyhawk (whatever variant the community module is) and give mission and mod builders the ability pre-select a substitute from vanilla DCS when someone lacks a mod a server is using or a mission requires. 

[SharpeXB]

A mod is a mod. Whether it’s player controlled or AI. If the Skyhawk team wanted to submit the model for inclusion as user donated content I think there’s already a procedure for that although I think in the past these have only been static objects or ground vehicles. I don’t know if AI aircraft have even gone this route. There would still be a lot of work to do on ED’s part to incorporate an AI asset that they aren’t getting paid for. Frankly their business is in selling content so I don’t know why they would be motivated to bring in freeware. 
Also as I understand it, no one person or entity holds the rights to such content who could make the decision to donate that work to a commercial product. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A mod is a mod. Whether it’s player controlled or AI. If the Skyhawk team wanted to submit the model for inclusion as user donated content I think there’s already a procedure for that although I think in the past these have only been static objects or ground vehicles. I don’t know if AI aircraft have even gone this route. There would still be a lot of work to do on ED’s part to incorporate an AI asset that they aren’t getting paid for. Frankly their business is in selling content so I don’t know why they would be motivated to bring in freeware. 

I can't tell if it is simply your knee jerk negativity or if you have failed to understand the idea put forth. I am not asking ED to add anything from the community mod. Instead I am asking them to add an official AI skyhawk and some code to DCS so that mod developers and mission builders can pick what vanilla model they want to stand in for their mod when a user doesn't have the mod. I would expect the people working with the community A-4 mod would logically select the official AI A-4 

[cfrag]

I believe @upyr1's suggestion was that ED provides an official A4 model that can be used as a stand-in model when you do not have the community A4 installed. Pretty much like DCS would use a "factory" C130 when you don't have Anubis' mod installed, or when DCS shows a factory Tomcat if you don't have Heatblur's DLC. AFAIK, currently there is no factory A4 model available, and adding such a model could make for an elegant solution. 

[MAXsenna]

25 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I believe @upyr1's suggestion was that ED provides an official A4 model that can be used as a stand-in model when you do not have the community A4 installed. Pretty much like DCS would use a "factory" C130 when you don't have Anubis' mod installed, or when DCS shows a factory Tomcat if you don't have Heatblur's DLC. AFAIK, currently there is no factory A4 model available, and adding such a model could make for an elegant solution. 

That's how I read it too. 

And we all know by now, that Sharpy suffers from wishphobia.

Cheers! 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MAXsenna

[upyr1]

24 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I believe @upyr1's suggestion was that ED provides an official A4 model that can be used as a stand-in model when you do not have the community A4 installed. Pretty much like DCS would use a "factory" C130 when you don't have Anubis' mod installed, or when DCS shows a factory Tomcat if you don't have Heatblur's DLC. AFAIK, currently there is no factory A4 model available, and adding such a model could make for an elegant solution. 

that's exactly what I said. There is a chance that Razbam will produce the official AI skyhawk 

Edited January 20, 2022 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I can't tell if it is simply your knee jerk negativity or if you have failed to understand the idea put forth. I am not asking ED to add anything from the community mod. Instead I am asking them to add an official AI skyhawk and some code to DCS so that mod developers and mission builders can pick what vanilla model they want to stand in for their mod when a user doesn't have the mod. I would expect the people working with the community A-4 mod would logically select the official AI A-4 

Ok so you’re asking them to do work to incorporate mods. It’s still work. It’s hard to tell what you’re asking for because you’re contradicting yourself. “I am not asking ED to add anything from the community mod“ but that’s what your thread title asked for. If you just want an AI Skyhawk then why does that involve mods? “I am asking them to add an official AI skyhawk and some code to DCS so that mod developers” so why say “official” and “mod” in the same sentence?

And again, the problem is that nobody owns the rights to these community projects. So incorporating that work into a commercial project is almost certainly a no go

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

There is a chance that Razbam will produce the official AI skyhawk 

Why would a 3rd party Dev make an AI aircraft? To sell it? 

[cfrag]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Ok so you’re asking them to do work to incorporate mods

I think it was suggested that ED source the A4 on their own, not community.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Sharpy suffers from wishphobia

I suffer from the need to be entertained

[MAXsenna]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Why would a 3rd party Dev make an AI aircraft? To sell it? 

To complete to SA map of course. You are aware of Deka's free Chinese Asset Pack? 

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I think it was suggested that ED source the A4 on their own, not community.

The problem with these freeware aircraft is that although they may be nice, they effectively kill any chance you’ll see these as actual DLC. Nobody will ever make an official A-4 or UH-60 Blackhawk etc now for DCS because they’d have to compete with these free modules. 

3 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

To complete to SA map of course. You are aware of Deka's free Chinese Asset Pack? 

That makes sense. But that’s DLC then and not a mod. The whole thread topic seems confused. 

[MAXsenna]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these freeware aircraft is that although they may be nice, they effectively kill any chance you’ll see these as actual DLC. Nobody will ever make  official A-4 or UH-60 Blackhawk etc now for because they’d have to compete with these free modules. 

 

Disagree. You KNOW how many people that are wishing for the A-4 to become an official module. And people are actually complaining that they can't donate to the team. So go figure! 

And many already hopes the UH-60 will become a full module as well.

Other reasons people want them to become modules, are for the exact reasons @upyr1 brought up in his post. 

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That makes sense. But that’s DLC then and not a mod. The whole thread topic seems confused. 

The Chinese Asset Pack is not a DLC. It's included in the core. 

[cfrag]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these freeware aircraft is that although they may be nice, they effectively kill any chance you’ll see these as actual DLC

So it seems that you are opposed to free community-created mods because they potentially threaten for-profit DLC development. That is definitely a valid point, albeit one that is pretty far out-field and unlikely to be applicable across the board. I don't feel comfortable weighing the pros and cons; I have the feeling that a well-made official DLC still have a good chance against a well-made community model (MB339 perhaps?).  

But let me put it differently:
I develop missions and provide them to the community for free. Are you equally opposed to that? My activities may threaten for-profit third-party missions/campaign development if I follow your reasoning.

I believe that I grasp your rationale, but I don't think that I agree with it. 

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Disagree. You KNOW how many people that are wishing for the A-4 to become an official module. And people are actually complaining that they can't donate to the team. So go figure! 

And many already hopes the UH-60 will become a full module as well.

Unless someone actually holds the rights to those they can never become commercial products. I think this has probably been discussed a billion times or so. 

[MAXsenna]

@cfrag I completely forgot about the MB-339, and it's a fantastic example. The development of the free module, (not a mod), was probably stopped as soon as they were cleared for 3rd party status. And it shows, as several of the animations stopped working after updates to the core. And as a 3rd party, you have access to the SDK, which will just make the DLC better. And several of us are watching the store for it. I even donated to the team when it was free. 

When I came back to DCS in 2019, I was very happy for the free modules, but they just made me hungry for more modules,and now I have all of them. So, I think that the free ones actually have merits of bringing in new users. 

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Unless someone actually holds the rights to those they can never become commercial products. I think this has probably been discussed a billion times or so. 

Doh, I know that. What's your point? That because now they're free modules, no-one can aquire the license? I know this not what you meant, but it sure as he'll seems that way.

AFAIK, the original A-4 team left the idea of becoming a 3rd party because Boeing was demanding too much for the license at the time. 

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I suffer from the need to be entertained

So this is basically you admitting that you're simply trolling these threads.
You're being useless because it amuses you, and no amount of not having a clue about how DCS works or anything related to the topic, and no amount of the mods telling you to stop will actually stop you.

Groovy.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Ok so you’re asking them to do work to incorporate mods. It’s still work. It’s hard to tell what you’re asking for because you’re contradicting yourself. “I am not asking ED to add anything from the community mod“ but that’s what your thread title asked for. If you just want an AI Skyhawk then why does that involve mods? “I am asking them to add an official AI skyhawk and some code to DCS so that mod developers” so why say “official” and “mod” in the same sentence?

You still can't seem to grasp the main points the first one is an that eagle needs to add an A-4 to dcs core. The second part is an option to assign an asset from dcs core to stand in for a mod. So let's say you build a mission with f-14As escorting a-4 Skyhawks if someone doesn't have the a-4 mod they could use the a-4 in dcs core to represent the a-4 for AI and remote players 

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And again, the problem is that nobody owns the rights to these community projects. So incorporating that work into a commercial project is almost certainly a no go

Why would a 3rd party Dev make an AI aircraft? To sell it? 

If Rambam has plans ti put anything in dcs core they wouldn't be selling it.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Unless someone actually holds the rights to those they can never become commercial products. I think this has probably been discussed a billion times or so. 

The a-4 community mod team has the rights and it will never become an official module. I am not asking for that I am asking for eagle to put a different a-4 model in dcs core and give people a way to use it to stand in for the community a-4 when they don't have it. In short I believe this would be the next best thing

[SharpeXB]

35 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

You still can't seem to grasp the main points the first one is an that eagle needs to add an A-4 to dcs core. The second part is an option to assign an asset from dcs core to stand in for a mod

So why can’t the game just have an AI A-4? Problem solved. This doesn’t need to involve mods. And apparently we are already getting an AI Skyhawk so why does this matter?

Edited January 20, 2022 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

29 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The a-4 community mod team has the rights and it will never become an official module.

And so now anyone who wanted an actual DCS Skyhawk DLC will never get one. Thanks modding team

An official module would of course be useable in the ME and game like you’re asking. So you want ED to create some sorta workaround for the obstacle these modders created. Giving away a free value-add to freeware that cuts in on their business

[Tippis]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So why can’t the game just have an AI A-4? Problem solved. This doesn’t need to involve mods. 

Have you tried reading the OP?

Just now, SharpeXB said:

And so now anyone who wanted an actual DCS Skyhawk DLC will never get one.

That's not how DLC actually works. Or business. Or DCS. Or modding.

A work-around for the obstacle plane mods (and indeed any mod) creates is needed regardless of how little you want to understand anything and irrespective of you dislike for the game getting better.

[cfrag]

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So why can’t the game just have an AI A-4? Problem solved.

Indeed. That is exactly what the OP suggests, and what you seemingly vehemently oppose. 

I'm slightly taken aback by your above statement, as it seems you did mean it when you said that you prefer your entertainment over the merits of thought (also sometimes called trolling). 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And so now anyone who wanted an actual DCS Skyhawk DLC will never get one. Thanks modding team

Now you definitely are trolling. Oh well.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by cfrag

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Indeed. That is exactly what the OP suggests, and what you seemingly vehemently oppose. 

I don’t disagree with that, I just don’t see what it has to do with the mod. 

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Now you definitely are trolling. Oh well.

Stating a fact is not “trolling”. The presence in the market of a high-quality freeware module will pretty much discourage any 3rd party from creating a paid DLC version. 

[cfrag]

4 hours ago, upyr1 said:

However I don't see any reason not to have an AI Skyhawk

Above: OP

38 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So why can’t the game just have an AI A-4?

Above: @SharpeXB solution.

Please point me to where those two disagree. No, you are trolling. Thank you for teaching me a lesson.

Edited January 20, 2022 by cfrag

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So why can’t the game just have an AI A-4? Problem solved.

Are you playing dumb or are you really this stupid. I literally asked for an ai Skyhawk 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

This doesn’t need to involve mods. And apparently we are already getting an AI Skyhawk so why does this matter?

 

I mentioned that Razbam may have one planned. The second part of the request was some way to assign the AI skyhawk as a stand in for people without the mod. 

[BIGNEWY]

Please stay on topic here. 

thanks