Let's get serious about Dive-Toss!

[JB3DG]

I hope it has it.

[Elf1606688794]

The F-4E's I worked on had dive toss, ARN-101 birds and non ARN-101 so I'd expect Heatblur will have it on the Phantom at some point.

[Karon]

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

[JB3DG]

Confession, the only reason I made this topic was so I could use that phrase cuz I got it from this book.

2 hours ago, Karon said:

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

 

[mkellytx]

5 hours ago, Karon said:

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

Great book, it tells the story very well how the Capt's and Maj's at FWS played a key roles changing USAF culture for the better post VN.  If you're looking for war stories, Palace Cobra and Fighter Pilot by Ed Rasimus are a good start.  Ed has a great chapter about dive toss...

[uri_ba]

Also TOSS!

In addition, one related static model request

In the 70s the Israeli airforce had oil drum towers (55gal oil drums painted white) along the borders at key positions. These drum towers were used as IP or as last waypoint in friendly territory and allowed a fixed known point to remove drift from INS.

[Karon]

2 hours ago, mkellytx said:

Great book, it tells the story very well how the Capt's and Maj's at FWS played a key roles changing USAF culture for the better post VN.  If you're looking for war stories, Palace Cobra and Fighter Pilot by Ed Rasimus are a good start.  Ed has a great chapter about dive toss...

I don't find war stories particularly useful, tbh. I prefer the technical details, and usually, they are left out from those. Per Ardua is a good example of what I prefer.

Thanks for the suggestions though

[Kirk66]

When Star Wars first came out, I was going through F-4C training at Luke AFB. Of course we all went to see it. The consensus from all the F-4 crews (instructors and students) was that Star Wars proved that, in the future:

There will still be fighter pilots (Luke, of course)

There will still be WSOs (R2-D2 in this case)

And Dive Toss will still not work...

(Dive Toss in the F-4 was notoriously finicky, and unless well maintained, pretty much useless. That being said, when it worked, it was great!)

Vulture

[_Hoss]

I was going to Navy Avionics schools in Millington, TN. When Star Wars came out in 77. This is a SIM so it will probably work until a patch comes out and bricks it. Like everything else....

Hoss

Edited January 27, 2022 by 352nd_Hoss

[MBot]

5 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

(Dive Toss in the F-4 was notoriously finicky, and unless well maintained, pretty much useless. That being said, when it worked, it was great!)

Very interesting. Would you say then that the primary method of bombing was still manually with the depressible pipper? I assume with ARN-101, CCIP became the primary mode?

[JB3DG]

19 hours ago, MBot said:

Very interesting. Would you say then that the primary method of bombing was still manually with the depressible pipper? I assume with ARN-101, CCIP became the primary mode?

Manual was the preferred mode according to the book first mentioned. There was also an ego side associated with it, the mindset of computers being for kids and that real men used manual.

[Rick50]

1 hour ago, JB3DG said:

Manual was the preferred mode according to the book first mentioned. There was also an ego side associated with it, the mindset of computers being for kids and that real men used manual.

 

That mindset might have resulted from a lack of confidence that the computer would be working well, when it was really needed. Thus practice the manual mode, get good at it, at least that will still have a chance at working well enough each sortie.  I mean, if it was broken that much of the time in a calm peacetime training, what faith would any experienced fighter pilot have, that the system would work rarely if ever, during wartime, when the maintenance crews are running around the clock, for weeks without a day off rest, when supply chains are strained, when the #$^Q technical manual is a bugger to read through at 02:30 in the graveyard...  where at least if you've developed your manual delivery skills, you can be certain that it works "60% of the time, it works every time"... or rather, you might miss some, but you'll still be close, and your next pass will probably be "on". 

 

Soldiers using rifles have sometimes have similar concerns about their own sighting systems... so while they have either a fancy optic, or a red dot optic, the ones that regularly expect to get into firefights often mount a backup system, small "iron sights" that work like those of earlier eras, like WW2 or the Cold War rifles. Truth be told, these optics are much less likely to fail than this Phantom computer, but the flip up irons are carried by some even today. Batteries fail, an electrical circuit gets vibrated out  of contact, the mount mechanism fails and the optic falls off... Murphy's Law: if it CAN go wrong, it will go wrong at the worst possible time!  The military was very slow to adopt the fancy red dot sights out of concern for their failure in harsh conditions... the first "modern" red dots started to get to market in the mid-1980's, but did not start being carried in the military until the late 90's in special forces unit, and by 2002 were being issued across the board. But early products range back to the late 60's for one version, and there was even a battery-less version from... early 1950's. 

 

[Kirk66]

Pre-ARN-101, manual dive bombing was practiced on every range mission, and was where you won or lost your quarters; but the serious crews also worked on dive toss to get the system tuned up (especially if going to Red Flag, for example). Manual bombs in a combat or Red Flag environment only worked if you dropped a LOT of them - normal load was 6 x Mk82s, 3 on each TER on the inboard pylons. If your dive toss system was working, it was a LOT better than trying to meet manual parameters during a pop attack with F-5s snapping at your heels...

ARN-101 brought CCIP to the F-4 and finally made it a pretty good iron bomber, but even then it took more skill than say an F-16; the F-4E CCIP only had the legacy F-4 reticle without the predictor line or post release guidance (in a Toss delivery) so it took more skill to get the moving CCIP pipper on the target; the ARN-101 F-4E also had a Dive Toss mode that I thought was a better system, as the pilot could maneuver pretty aggressively with a stable pipper, put the pipper on the target, designate, then pull hard until the bombs came off. Some pilots liked it, most preferred the CCIP mode where the bombs came off as soon as they picked. 

Vulture

[FongFic]

I have a question, which dive angle is suitable for dive toss, i alway get permission release at too low attitude?

[Kalasnkova74]

On 2/1/2022 at 3:18 PM, Kirk66 said:

Pre-ARN-101, manual dive bombing was practiced on every range mission, and was where you won or lost your quarters; but the serious crews also worked on dive toss to get the system tuned up (especially if going to Red Flag, for example). Manual bombs in a combat or Red Flag environment only worked if you dropped a LOT of them - normal load was 6 x Mk82s, 3 on each TER on the inboard pylons. If your dive toss system was working, it was a LOT better than trying to meet manual parameters during a pop attack with F-5s snapping at your heels...

 

In the 1989 USAF Gunsmoke competition at Nellis, F-4E 3rd TFW squadrons avoided using Dive Toss. The reason was precision- the Dive Toss system couldn’t perform better than 20 meters, in top line F-4Es . Their competitors in F-16s were dropping practice bombs on tank turrets, so that clearly wasn’t going to work. To place well at Gunsmoke - an event so precise the timing of your squadrons arrival at Nellis was one of the activities scored for points - the F-4E teams brought along a centerline Pave Drag- err, Pave Tack pod.

They’d fly a profile for a CCIP drop using the ARN-101, but on lineup the WSO would slew the Pave Tack on the target and take a laser range of the targets altitude. The WSO punched that data into the ARN-101 “Arnie” and now they have a very precise targeting solution. The 3rd TFW clocked 7 meter accuracy during Gunsmoke, placing 5th out of 16 units participating. The top 4 were F-16A wings employing digital CCIP “Death Dot” systems.

 

[Kirk66]

All very interesting, except for one detail: The 3rd TFS's F-4E were all ARN-101 jets, that didn't even have Dive Toss anymore. They had CCIP and CCRP, just like the F-16s. But the ranging accuracy with the Pave Tack pod laser made it even more accurate than just plain CCIP (which was a lot better than DT in the older pre-DMAS jets).

Incidentally, I was on the 1983 PACAF Gunsmoke team. We had ARN-101 jets back then even (transition at Clark was in 1982, I think), and our CCIP accuracy was a lot better than 20 meters.

The biggest advantage the F-16s had was their HUD, which had a bomb fall line for CCIP; the repurposed optical gunsight of the ARN-101 F-4E just had a "floating" CCIP pipper, so the pilot had a tougher time predicting when it would be on the target. 

Interesting factoid: between every delivery, the Peugeot WSOs would enter the specific location and ejection velocity for the next station on the TER, to account for lateral and vertical velocity and displacement from the centerline of the jet. Interesting in the pop pattern as you were typing numbers into the computer while upside down prior to rolling in...

Taking the Pave Task pods was a good choice in 89; not sure why we didn't in 83, a laser altitude update makes sense.

Vulture

[Kirk66]

20 hours ago, FongFic said:

I have a question, which dive angle is suitable for dive toss, i alway get permission release at too low attitude?

It's pretty lenient, I think 10 to 60 degrees or so (there is a chart somewhere) but the sweet spot is about 30 degrees dive angle, releasing at 4 to 5,000 ft AGL. Some tips: 

- Don't wait until your pipper is on the target to tell Jester to lock (context long), pipper anywhere near the target (and not even wings level) is fine - you are locking on to the Earth, after all!

- The DT range input is taken when you pickle, so after you see the range bar in the gunsight indicating a good radar lock on the ground, smoothly move the pipper onto the target, track a moment, pickle, then start a smooth pull up keeping the wings level (use the roll tabs in the gunsight) while holding the pickle button down until the bombs come off. Doesn't have to be a hard pull, just ease off the dive angle smoothly - once the bombs are gone (tone stops) then start pulling and jinking cuz you just pissed off some guys!

Vulture

[IvanK]

On 1/28/2022 at 4:44 AM, Kirk66 said:

When Star Wars first came out, I was going through F-4C training at Luke AFB. Of course we all went to see it. The consensus from all the F-4 crews (instructors and students) was that Star Wars proved that, in the future:

There will still be fighter pilots (Luke, of course)

There will still be WSOs (R2-D2 in this case)

And Dive Toss will still not work...

(Dive Toss in the F-4 was notoriously finicky, and unless well maintained, pretty much useless. That being said, when it worked, it was great!)

Vulture

That made me chuckle. I still have a now very faded photocopy of "Lessons learnt from Star wars" that as I recall was from a Fighter Weapons newsletter it goes:

LESSONS LEARNT FROM STAR WARS

I. There will always be Fighter Pilots

II. Happy hour will live forever.

III. There will always be broads at Happy hour.

IV. Navigators can always be replaced by machines.

V. Dive Toss will never work.

VI. Strike pukes need Top cover

May the total Force be with you

[Kirk66]

The irony is that now, Pilots are being replaced by machines, so they will be standing in line behind the Nav's to get a chance to fly a drone...

Payback is a bitch.

Vulture

[MBot]

Hey @Kirk66, would you have any tips on low level LGB deliveries?

Yesterday a friend and I were testing Pave Spike with multicrew. We had pretty good success with a pop-up dive-toss attack. Low level ingress, pulling 30° offset 5 NM from target, into a 30° climb 3'000 ft above target elevation, then rolling in to make the Pave Spike acquisition and pulling up into a dive-toss delivery (but in Target Find). That worked fairly well, though we had reservations about vulnerability during the designation phase. You get pretty low directly over the target and can't maneuver a lot without throwing off the Pave Spike tracking.

We then attempted a LGB delivery in Loft mode, but that didn't work out well. We quickly found out that since Loft is an ARBCS mode you don't get WRCS integration for Pave Spike. So no Memory mode. Which meant that when pulling down from the Loft maneuver and you inevitably temporary mask the pod, Pave Spike lacking the memory function immediately returns to 12-VIS. No WRCS integration seems to be a no-go for this type of maneuver.

We then attempted a hand flown loft maneuver in Direct mode (which provides WRCS integration for Pave Spike). Memory mode was available and it was possible in principle to keep the sight on the target(-area), but keeping a steady track was still very difficult due to the inherent post-loft maneuvering. Also the precision of the "Kentucky Windage" loft was pretty dubious.

An option might also be straight low angle pop-up at the target to get a better view, then designating it as good as possible and lofting using Target Find mode. Haven't tried that out yet.

Any suggestions on how it was done for real would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Fighting Pave Spike to keep it on target in a low altitude ingress is a real struggle (even if you are above the set target elevation). That thing wants to go everywhere but ahead.

[Dragon1-1]

Honestly, I don't know if self-lasing after loft was ever a thing in that era. Buddy lasing is probably the optimal way to operate in this case. Lofting LGBs and then lasing them is not an easy feat even in the Viper.

[Zabuzard]

Even if you want to loft with the Spike, stay in TGT FIND. TGT FIND allows you to drop and designate from any attitude.
Designate the target from smooth flight, hold bomb button and then pull up smoothly as you increase power.

Two general tips:
- when using LGB, never have the laser active while the bomb falls until it reaches the last few seconds before impact; thr chance of someone messing up by momentarily having the laser drift elsewhere are far too great. Drop the LGBs from non-laser tracking mode, do your maneuver, stabilize and then activate the laser. Once activated, dont touch the stick anymore.
- during maneuvering, the WSO should not touch the antenna stick to "correct" the pod. The pod isnt offset bc it forgot the target position, but because its motors cant work against the fast aircraft movement. Any "correction" input by the WSO in this phase results in offsetting the pod further and further. Corrections must only be made when the pod walked back to its remembered target position fully and the plane has stopped maneuvering. It is crucial that the pilot announces when he touches the stick so that the WSO can differentiate pod drift from normal aircraft induced movement.

[MBot]

Thanks for the tips. I did some more testing and indeed Target Find seems to be the best mode to loft LGBs. The problem of having to designate the target point at low level before initiation of the loft maneuver is solvable with a shallow climb.

As a matter of fact, Pave Spike in TGT FIND it is also an excellent tool to loft unguided bombs:

 

[MBot]

Lofting LGBs is also possible solo fairly easily if the threat level allows to keep climbing after release. But you better kill that SAM if you want to egress Better bring along a human WSO so you maneuver after the release.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2024 by MBot

[Kirk66]

First of all, you are going to have to get high enough to lase a target and not have the laser all over the place due to graze angle and podium effect. You can ingress low and loft, but you eventually have to expose yourself to threats while designating. Thats true of all TGPs due to the pysics of lasers and LGBs, unless you have a target with a lot of vertical surface.

In my day we were more concerned with radar AAA than SAMS (which should be suppressed by the WWs). So Lofting was for range, not so much low alt. After release, no lasing (only on for last 12 seconds or so), turn to put target at 9 o'clock (for standoff and not overfly tgt which causes weird pod rotation), turn left and fly a pylon turn around target, WSO fine tunes aim point and lases to impact.

I've been able to do this from front seat with pod controls mapped to pilot seat side stick - but you really need a live WSO to make it happen properly.

If you have to loft and stay low, then buddy lase from higher with stand off.

Vulture