Question about the new FLIR

[CYPHER11]

Hey guys,

 

first of all thank you so much for the latest update - absolutely amazing. 
 

i have a question about the new FLIR - I know it is WIP - but yesterday on Syria map with the Apache we had some issues - for example hay bales and trees where completely white in WHOT. Should‘nt they be grey and the vehicles between the woods should be white? Is there any specific setting I need to configure in the Options Tab to make it working? Or is it a WIP issue and the map objects have to be adjusted? Is it map related or should it work on any map?

 

sorry @BIGNEWYand @NineLinefoR the Ping but I am actually not sure if I am right here

 

thank you in advance for the great work  really enjoy DCS for more than 7 Years now

[Wychmaster]

I was also wondering why I couldn't find tanks or vehicles inside forests during the day on the Syria map using the FLIR. So I did some testing on the Caucasus and on the Syria map. 

I created basically an identical setup on both maps (3000 ft distance, 20 degrees Celsius, look to the north, 8:00 AM) on both maps and tried to get a good contrast. You can see the results on the first two images below. It seems that the ground textures on the syria map (first picture) are much brighter through the FLIR than the ones of the caucasus map, which makes it hard to get a good image setup where you can spot vehicles easier. It also seems that forest areas have much brighter ground textures than open fields (maybe forest stores heat? see third picture [Caucasus]). As you can see on the fourth picture (Caucasus), the T-72B3 (tank in the middle) has a solid contrast against the background on an open field while it is almost black on the forest pictures.

I have no real clue how it looks IRL, and whether the effects shown in the pictures are correctly simulated effects or if it is simply just WIP inaccuracies. It would be nice if someone of the ED team or someone who has experience with FLIR systems can shed some light on what we see here:

- Why are the ground textures on the Syria map brighter?

- Why is the ground in and around forests brighter?

- Is the contrast close to reality for the chosen setup or still WIP?

I also included tracks of the test missions that I used to create 3 of the 4  images. The image with multiple tanks in the open was taken in a different mission. If needed, I can create a track of it too.

By the way, at night, the FLIR works as expected and all vehicles are more or less easy to detect.

FLIR Caucasus.trk FLIR Syria.trk

Edited March 29, 2022 by Wychmaster

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, Wychmaster said:

 

I have no real clue how it looks IRL, and whether the effects shown in the pictures are correctly simulated effects or if it is simply just WIP inaccuracies. It would be nice if someone of the ED team or someone who has experience with FLIR systems can shed some light on what we see here:

- Why are the ground textures on the Syria map brighter?

- Why is the ground in and around forests brighter?

- Is the contrast close to reality for the chosen setup or still WIP?

 

So, I can't really comment on the implementation aside to say I hope its WIP. 

IRL, dry soil will tend look "brighter"

No clue on the ground around forests, ground imagery tends to vary alot by soil composition and more importantly vegetation content. If I were to have a comment on the ground in general on the maps is that its too uniform, same comment on trees/forests. But they look uniform in the regular view too so that is what it is.  

Not sure if I understand your contrast comment, but yeah those images look ok ish. 

And yes FLIR, works better at night.

If you are in a testing mood, I haven't had time check for diurnal crossover on these maps. like a bit after sunrise or a few hours after sunset should be poor contrast conditions.

 

 

 

[StandingCow]

From what I am seeing it is "partially implemented" on all ED modules except for being fully implemented on the Apache.  Word is it should hopefully be fully implemented in the next big patch.

As far as 3rd parties.... I think they have all enabled it now? 

Someone put this together with images from a bunch of modules: https://imgur.com/a/8OxkB4I

[Lace]

What you need to remember about thermal imaging, is that two objects of the same temperature can look different.  What matters is the rate at which they are losing heat (in a certain part of the IR spectrum) to their surroundings. It is as much about the material properties as the actual temperature.

 

Edit - but yes, of course this is still WiP and will no doubt be tweaked.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Lace

[CYPHER11]

8 hours ago, Lace said:

What you need to remember about thermal imaging, is that two objects of the same temperature can look different.  What matters is the rate at which they are losing heat (in a certain part of the IR spectrum) to their surroundings. It is as much about the material properties as the actual temperature.

 

Edit - but yes, of course this is still WiP and will no doubt be tweaked.

 

Well, example: 30 degrees, Syria map - the metal of the tank will be much hotter than the trees in the surrounding. But for me they are still not really noticeable inbetween Forrest’s … but yeah, guess we have to wait a bit more

[Harlikwin]

On 3/31/2022 at 5:26 AM, Lace said:

What you need to remember about thermal imaging, is that two objects of the same temperature can look different.  What matters is the rate at which they are losing heat (in a certain part of the IR spectrum) to their surroundings. It is as much about the material properties as the actual temperature.

 

Edit - but yes, of course this is still WiP and will no doubt be tweaked.

 

 

Yeah its complicated and not complicated. People think "heat" as being what is seen, but rather its a combination of emission/reflection of IR energy. And if the emmisivity of 2 objects is different they will look very different even if at the same "temperature".

You can see that the ring on that finger looks very different than the rest of the hand due to the different emissivity of the hand "material" and the ring "material. Even though they are basically at the same temperature.

It gets even more complicated in .mil world where most paints/coatings are specifically designed (these days) to match background emissivity (though historically this wasn't the case).

Its further complicated by the fact that ED looks like the chose to model LWIR imagers (i.e. what the Apache has). But then TGP's like the Litening/ATFLIR/etc work in the MWIR part of the spectrum so will look somewhat different, especially during the day.