The F-35 Thread

[probad]

ukraine also didn't see nukes as being realistically useful hahahahahaha

[garrya]

Specifically the A-10 can get down low and close to the enemy thanks to a great deal of protection and redundancy in systems, has many more times the amount of cannon rounds for direct fire (the cannon is also bigger in caliber for a larger effect on target pr. round), and The A-10's ability to carry out a gun run at a low approach speed is also essential for the most effective employment of the gun.

I don't understand why people treating the cannon like some magical weapons that have no substitute in CAS. It not like A-10 only use its gun either. What the problem with using APKWS and SDBII instead?

 

fly in all kinds of weather

Same can be said about F-35

 

has a much longer loiter time etc

Actually , what are their loiter time respectively ?

 

 

What the F-35 will be able to do in a low threat environment such as afghanistan is essentially the same as what an F-16 is capable of with a few extra bombs and little extra loiter time.

In low threat environment, F-35 can effectively carry 3 times more SDB than F-16

[Hummingbird]

Not preparing for the worst is bad strategy as if you leave a power vacuum something is going to fill it eventually and scraping army and new weapons together in a hurry has been historically slower than a build-up of a new threat.

 

I agree, my point is merely that the F-35 can't effectively replace the A-10 in the type of wars we're fighting atm. That doesn't mean that the F-35 isn't needed however, cause you definitely need to stay ahead and be prepared for the worst, however that doesn't mean replacing what already works and is on top much cheaper to operate.

 

The F-35A will eventually take over all the F-16's roles, the F-35C's the F-18's and the F-35B's the Harrier's, which is fine, but it should be kept at that.

[Hummingbird]

I don't understand why people treating the cannon like some magical weapons that have no substitute in CAS. It not like A-10 only use its gun either. What the problem with using APKWS and SDBII instead?

 

Nothing magical about it, ask the troops on the ground what weapon they appreciated the most and they will answer the cannon. Why? Cause it can be used to support troops who are much closer to the enemy, where by comparison using a bomb would be lethal to your own troops.

 

Same can be said about F-35

 

I sincerely doubt that.

 

Actually , what are their loiter time respectively ?

 

IIRC the A-10 can on average stay on station over the combat area for 90min where'as by comparison the F-35 can only stay there for about 20-30 min.

 

In low threat environment, F-35 can effectively carry 3 times more SDB than F-16

 

How many can it carry? Eight?

 

 

Also by comparison the F-15 can carry well over three times that amount.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Hummingbird

[Sweep]

One of the 422 guys said the F-35A had a 90 min loiter at a 200nmi radius, I believe that was with internal A/G stores.

 

Internally it'll have 8 SDBs with 3F, externally - Well, you have up to 4 heavy pylons.

 

F-15Es would probably carry, at max, 4 or 5 racks of SDBs per jet. Though they're much more likely to have 2-4 and not max load. Mixed loadouts are quite likely with all aircraft discussed, too, IMO.

 

Edit: P.S., Hummingbird, why can't the F-35 fly (or did you mean fight? I haven't really been following the thread much) in the same weather as the A-10? Any specific scenarios you have in mind?

Edited February 26, 2017 by Sweep

[Hummingbird]

One of the 422 guys said the F-35A had a 90 min loiter at a 200nmi radius, I believe that was with internal A/G stores.

 

Internally it'll have 8 SDBs with 3F, externally - Well, you have up to 4 heavy pylons.

 

F-15Es would probably carry, at max, 4 or 5 racks of SDBs per jet. Though they're much more likely to have 2-4 and not max load. Mixed loadouts are quite likely with all aircraft discussed, too, IMO.

 

Edit: P.S., Hummingbird, why can't the F-35 fly (or did you mean fight? I haven't really been following the thread much) in the same weather as the A-10? Any specific scenarios you have in mind?

 

Fight. Weather with a low cloud cover for example, the F-35 won't be able to safely fly below the clouds and effectively see and engage the enemy. The advanced radar for looking through the weather is only really effective for targeting advanced threats.

 

Another area where it will struggle, just like any other fast mover, is CAS in a mountainous area, a place where the ability to operate and initiate sharp maneuvers at low speed are key. The A-10 proved invaluable in the Kunar province in Afghanistan by being able to navigate inside the narrow mountain valleys and provide close in support for the troops there.

[Mike5560]

The advanced radar for looking through the weather is only really effective for targeting advanced threats.

 

Why is it only effective for targeting advanced threats?

[Shaniaxx]

Hummingbird:

 

Range: Gilmore in his idiotic comparison sad at 250nm A-10 can loiter 90min. F-35B only 20-30min.

 

So lighter F-35A will have 2,3t of extra fuel for loiter.... like Sweep sad, F-35A have very very long range and endurance on internal fuel only.

 

Anyway, USAF will always have tankers, so its irrelevant who got little extra time on station.

 

 

Gun: its last used method of CAS these days... you cant use it effectively in urban environment, you cant kill anybody competent in environment with little cover. Even if you can catch enemy in open, gun cant kill to many of them, they will have to much time to spread and take cover before A-10 gets to attack position.. .. one JDAM or CBU will obliterace them or at las take them out of combat...

 

Purpose of gun in CAS is suppress and shock enemy... not to kill them. Same is done with high speed low passes and some flares.

 

Gun is good on columns of fuel truck with zero resistance and plenty of time, or will be good on CSAR, but its not essential weapon and can be easily replaced with APWKS or Hellfire, Griffin...

 

Weather: F-35 actually have sensors to see trough weather (theirs SAR maps is much better that you assume) and target something unlike A-10. F-35 also can fly slower that A-10... But why... JTAC + JDAM from 20 000ft, F-35 can fight when visibility is zero...

 

SDB: 2x4 internally and 4x4 externally, theoretically you can load more heavy bombs on F-35A that on mudhen, but nobody will use it operationally.

 

-----------

 

Like I sad before, even if A-10 is ultimate 1000% better CAS platform, they will be deployed in small numbers which mean majority of CAS mission must be done with something else anyway... so this isnt about F-35 replacing A-10 but about overblown reputation A-10 have.... Some people actualy thing only A-10 can do CAS and without it grunts will die... In real world A-10 was forced to operate like fast movers, because they cant survive in low alt when somebody actually shoot at them.

 

And USAF replaced A-10 with something else very long time ago... with smart bombs.

 

Best part of A-10s are pilots- their training for only one mission...

 

--------------

 

Drones Do Excellent Urban Close Air Support; Mideast F-35A Deployment In Several Years

 

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/02/drones-do-excellent-urban-close-air-support-mideast-f-35a-deployment-in-several-years/

[garrya]

Nothing magical about it, ask the troops on the ground what weapon they appreciated the most and they will answer the cannon. Why? Cause it can be used to support troops who are much closer to the enemy, where by comparison using a bomb would be lethal to your own troops.

That true for 500-1000 pounds bombs but not so true for mini size weapons like SDB or APKWS.

And the GAU-8 is really that accurate either, it actually spray bullet over radius much larger than SDB and APKWS CEP.

 

 

I sincerely doubt that.

F-35 has both infrared system and radar. A-10 only has an infrared system and that not even cover 360 degrees. In bad weather, A-10 will do a lot worse while F-35 can still operate in zero visibility due to the radar.

 

 

IIRC the A-10 can on average stay on station over the combat area for 90min where'as by comparison the F-35 can only stay there for about 20-30 min

Ok , but in that case A-10 still significantly inferior to UAV such as the MQ-9 which can loiter for over 14 hours fully loaded. So why should anyone keep A-10 instead of running a force with F-35 and cheap UAV ?

 

 

How many can it carry? Eight?

Also by comparison the F-15 can carry well over three times that amount.

Actually, F-35 can carry 8 SDB in internal configuration, but that is for high threat environment only. If threat level are low ( where the non-stealthy F-16 can access), then F-35 can carry 24 SDB in total with both internal and external pylon. F-15 can carry maximum of 28 SDB

[Hummingbird]

Why is it only effective for targeting advanced threats?

 

Because you can't use it to monitor small bands of people moving around. It's meant primarily to locate landmarks, buildings and vehicles.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

That true for 500-1000 pounds bombs but not so true for mini size weapons like SDB or APKWS.

And the GAU-8 is really that accurate either, it actually spray bullet over radius much larger than SDB and APKWS CEP.

 

Bombs kill either by spreading large amounts of shrapnel or by concussive effect, thus they are only effective if they cover a relatively large area, which obviously makes them very dangerous to use close to friendlies.

 

By comparison you can shoot closer to friendly troops with cannon fire, which is also faster on target incase of a fleeting enemy. As far as accuracy goes GAU-8 is very accurate when it needs to be - the many videos you will see on youtube with 30mm rounds spread over a large area are completely on purpose by the pilot, which is another great thing about the GAU8, that you can engage a very small as well as a very large area target with it effectively.

 

Also essential is the ability to pour down several bursts in a single attack run thanks to the very slow approach speed of the A-10. I mean you've probably tried it in DCS, but if not try it out and you'll understand how nice that extra time to engage several targets on the same run really is.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Hummingbird
Correct a few typos

[Boagrius]

Bombs kill either by spreading large amounts of shrapnel or by concussive effect, thus they are only effective if they cover a relatively large area, which obviously makes them very dangerous to use close to friendlies.

 

Doubt that's representative of SDB though - fairly sure one of its main selling points is the ability to use it in close proximity to friendlies and/or civilians. Ditto for APKWS.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Boagrius

[garrya]

Bombs kill either by spreading large amounts of shrapnel or by concussive effect, thus they are only effective if they cover a relatively large area, which obviously makes them very dangerous to use close to friendlies.

 

By comparison you can shoot closer to friendly troops with cannon fire, which is also faster on target incase of a fleeting enemy. As far as accuracy goes GAU-8 is very accurate when it needs to be - the many videos you will see on youtube with 30mm rounds spread over a large area are completely on purpose by the pilot, which is another great thing about the GAU8, that you can engage a very small as well as a very large area target with it effectively.

 

Also essential is the ability to pour down several bursts in a single attack run thanks to the very slow approach speed of the A-10. I mean you've probably tried it in DCS, but if not try it out and you'll understand how nice that extra time to engage several targets on the same run really is.

 

Iam not talking about normal bombs , but this

 

Worse case you can use Hydra70 or CRV7 with flechette warhead

Edited February 26, 2017 by garrya

[Mike5560]

.......Even if you can catch enemy in open, gun cant kill to many of them, they will have to much time to spread and take cover before A-10 gets to attack position.. .. one JDAM or CBU will obliterace them or at las take them out of combat...

 

Depends on a lot of factors....A-10s typically fly at medium altitude and if guns are the only viable option due to proximity of troops, I would argue the target personnel aren't going to see the strafe coming. CBUs are in the inventory but haven't been used since 2003 for a number of reasons.

 

 

Purpose of gun in CAS is suppress and shock enemy... not to kill them. Same is done with high speed low passes and some flares.

 

You can never guarantee that a show of force will have a negligible effect. The gun is still very effective against troops, though not quite as much as a lot of public hype gives it.

 

Best part of A-10s are pilots- their training for only one mission...

 

Agree 100%

 

I think the largest limiting factor for CAS with the F-35 (currently) is the weapons it has been tested/ approved for. Which seems to correspond with the opinions of the pilots coming from legacy platforms.

[Mike5560]

Because you can't use it to monitor small bands of people moving around. It's meant primarily to locate landmarks, buildings and vehicles.

 

That would make advanced threats, buildings and vehicles as viable targets. Being that the SAR range/resolution of the APG-81 is classified, I think the case is not closed on whether or not it can discern people.

[Sierra99]

I think the largest limiting factor for CAS with the F-35 (currently) is the weapons it has been tested/ approved for. Which seems to correspond with the opinions of the pilots coming from legacy platforms.

 

The largest limiting factor for the F-35s is loiter time. CAS is a "right now" requirement. It doesn't matter what kind of weapons the F-35 is carrying...if it's only available for 20-30 minutes before it has to bingo out...it's meaningless. (And the idea "it doesn't need to loiter because it will get there fast" is simply a fairytale.)

 

No of all of its limitations, loiter time is the main nail in the F-35s coffin as far as CAS is concerned...

 

Sierra

[Tirak]

The largest limiting factor for the F-35s is loiter time. CAS is a "right now" requirement. It doesn't matter what kind of weapons the F-35 is carrying...if it's only available for 20-30 minutes before it has to bingo out...it's meaningless. (And the idea "it doesn't need to loiter because it will get there fast" is simply a fairytale.)

 

No of all of its limitations, loiter time is the main nail in the F-35s coffin as far as CAS is concerned...

 

Sierra

 

We've been round this fight before, by that logic, the ultimate CAS platform is a B-52.

[Hummingbird]

We've been round this fight before, by that logic, the ultimate CAS platform is a B-52.

 

Well you're not that far off, the AC-130 gunship for example is not bad in terms of CAS as it can stay around for a long time and has a lot of ordnance to throw at the enemy - BUT like the fast movers it is limited by weather, has to stay up high and it can't operate in as harsh of environments as the A-10.

 

The A-10's ability to operate off of makeshift airstrips in all kinds of environments is one it's great advantages as it often allows it to be stationed nearer the combat zone than the fast movers, which both decreases the response time and further lengthens the loiter time - an often overlooked fact.

 

To qoute Lt. Col. Ryan Haden of the 23rd Fighter Group:

“I’ve seen this airplane land on a desert strip with the main gear buried in a foot of sand. On most planes, this would have ripped the gear up, but the A-10 turned right around and took off,”

 

The A-10 can even operate safely in heavy hail weather that would ground any fast mover, which is one of the reasons retired A-10's have even been considered as storm chasers in the states.

[Sierra99]

Ya left out the 'big thing' with Hogs...

 

Hog pilots are supposed to be the Gods of CAS (and CSAR support/BAI/SCAR). Everybody else has a bunch of other missions to train for, typically. Hopefully that'll change as they dump Hogs over the next few years.

 

Sweep,

 

Hog pilots aren't supposed to be the gods of CAS, CSAR...They are.

 

During my career I spent many hours talking with different pilots as we drug them back and forth across the pond during deployments and redeployments from the desert. All are professionals...but A-10 pilots are different. In their own words...their mission is SAVING LIVES...the lives of Americans on the ground. Be they combatants or downed aircrew. They are a completly different breed.

 

It's important you remember, Based on their performance, pilots graduating pilot training get to select their assignments. 20 years ago the top pilots out of pilot training went to F-15s and F-16s...Guess what the top pilots have been selecting for about the last ten years...that's right, they are CHOOSING to fly the A-10.

 

As far as training, A-10 Squadrons are no different than any other flying squadron. Every flying squadron has a Primary wartime mission...That mission is why the squadron exists. That mission is the they are manned against, that mission is what their training budget is allocated against, That mission is what they train for and that mission is what they are evaluated on.

 

Implying A-10 pilots are somehow inferior and "only have to learn one mission" while other pilots have to train for "a bunch of other missions" is simply BS.

 

Finally, don't hold your breath waiting for them to "dump the hogs".

 

https://www.defensetech.org/2016/10/28/air-force-flying-10s-indefinitely/?mobile=1

[Tirak]

It's important you remember, Based on their performance, pilots graduating pilot training get to select their assignments. 20 years ago the top pilots out of pilot training went to F-15s and F-16s...Guess what the top pilots have been selecting for about the last ten years...that's right, they are CHOOSING to fly the A-10.

 

Gonna need a citation for this here because from everything I've ever seen, the top pilots want the F-22.

[Sweep]

Implying A-10 pilots are somehow inferior and "only have to learn one mission" while other pilots have to train for "a bunch of other missions" is simply BS.

 

Oh I didn't mean it like that at all! I think what I was getting at is that a lot of other types have to train for offensive air to air missions in addition to a lot of A/G stuff (think F-18 guys for example).

 

Edit: Also, what I meant with the "hopefully that'll change" is that as Hogs are retired (whenever), I hope that mindset and training focus will find another community.

 

And as for dumping Hogs, I know they've been trying to keep them...For various reasons. Some reasons are great and obvious, others are a bit more questionable (mainly political BS, from what I've heard...).

Edited February 27, 2017 by Sweep
even more clarifications!

[Sierra99]

We've been round this fight before, by that logic, the ultimate CAS platform is a B-52.

 

No, actually with the availability of the APKWS the A-10 is still a better CAS platofrm than a B-52.

 

The APKWS also dramatically enhances the A-10s suitability for urban combat. Now instead of dropping a 500lb JDAM on a specific building, you hit a specific Bedroom with an 8-17 pound warhead further reducing collateral damage. And the cool part is, adding just 2 launchers is 14 rockets, 4 launchers is 28 rockets and they can mix and match the warheads for different applications. Thats an awful lot of pinpoint strikes...

 

No the B-52 can do CAS... I'm pretty sure there isn't anything a buff can't do... But in this case, the A-10 is still far more flexible and suitable for the mission at hand.

 

Sierra.

[Sweep]

You know what'd be fun? An A-29 with APKWS.

 

*Looks at RAZBAM*

 

Or an A-10C...ED...Hehe ;)

[aaron886]

(And the idea "it doesn't need to loiter because it will get there fast" is simply a fairytale.)

 

This is why "airborne alert" is the new fashion. Who do you think has been doing the majority of CAS overseas in the last 10 years? (Hint: it hasn't been A-10s, and it hasn't been done with large vulnerability windows.) Planners are typically thinking in terms of a consistent flow of sorties that can be leveraged for CAS or other targets. This is why you see increasingly flexible and smaller smart weapons that can be used on a variety of targets. We've been making a pivot to this concept of CAS since Desert Storm or before.

[Sierra99]

This is why "airborne alert" is the new fashion. Who do you think has been doing the majority of CAS overseas in the last 10 years? (Hint: it hasn't been A-10s, and it hasn't been done with large vulnerability windows.) Planners are typically thinking in terms of a consistent flow of sorties that can be leveraged for CAS or other targets. This is why you see increasingly flexible and smaller smart weapons that can be used on a variety of targets. We've been making a pivot to this concept of CAS since Desert Storm or before.

 

Funny...

 

I deployed to the Middle East repeatedly during my career. 4-5 times a year 45-90 days at a time or more. I also deployed Tanker planner dozens of times between 1992 and 2009. I have planned literally hundreds of Tanker sorties supporting combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and I have flown hundreds of hours in tanker orbits over both countries. I can tell you for fact...the predominate "CAS" platform we supported was the A-10. And those sorties involved multiple Air Refueling's of the same receivers during their Vul period.

 

The "consistent flow of sorties" you describe occurs during wartime, tapers of to a structured assignment of missions during ongoing operations. It's done this way to because after the initial "war" because it's expensive to maintain the same combat presence AND to ensure a more orderly assignment of support assets based on threat. I.E. We assign the appropriate assets to the appropriate missions. Are there other aircraft in country? Yes. But there is a signifigant difference between "CAS" training and "Interdiction" training which is what many of the other sorties are tasked with. Absolutly.

 

Units have an assigned mission they train for. As far as I know, only the A-10 and AV-8 have dedicated CAS missions.

 

Sierra