What would be the correct IR missile for the MiG21 in 1969-72 period?

[Gunfreak]

The R-3R?

[TLTeo]

Some combination of R-3S or R-13 would be my guess. The -R is not an IR missile, the R-13M1 was introduced in 1976 from what I can tell.

Edited April 15, 2022 by TLTeo

[Hiromachi]

Depends for who and depends where. Warsaw Pact and export customers would almost exclusively have R-3S Atoll, rather than newer R-13M missiles. Soviet Union would have higher % of R-13Ms but still primary missile would be R-3S.

[Alexmarine]

Given that even the Soviets only started to see the R-13M in 1974 along the early models of the R-60, for the 1969-1972 period the only IR missile you would have seen on MiGs is the R-3S. The R-3R was not cleared for export untill the mid-70s at the earliest, and ended mainly only in some Warpac countries arsenals. But I mean, the Bis itself probably started to get issued to soviet fighters units by the end of 1972/early 1973 so we are really on the edge of the timeframe. A better timeframe for more Bis flying around (at least for Soviets, and maybe the DDR) is from 1975 to 1979 (not counting units still flying them well into the 80s).

 

Remember to take off the countermeasures pods too if you are flying anything pre-80s at the very least 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

 

 

Remember to take off the countermeasures pods too if you are flying anything pre-80s at the very least 

[Gunfreak]

5 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

Given that even the Soviets only started to see the R-13M in 1974 along the early models of the R-60, for the 1969-1972 period the only IR missile you would have seen on MiGs is the R-3S. The R-3R was not cleared for export untill the mid-70s at the earliest, and ended mainly only in some Warpac countries arsenals. But I mean, the Bis itself probably started to get issued to soviet fighters units by the end of 1972/early 1973 so we are really on the edge of the timeframe. A better timeframe for more Bis flying around (at least for Soviets, and maybe the DDR) is from 1975 to 1979 (not counting units still flying them well into the 80s).

 

Remember to take off the countermeasures pods too if you are flying anything pre-80s at the very least 

It's for a fictitious scenario with Soviet MiG21s meeting Norwegian F-5s.

Norway used the A model, so not the Tiger II.  But it's a close as I get, but at least the F-5 can use Sidewinder Bs which I know Norway used. So I was looking foe the correct missiles for the MiG21.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

It's for a fictitious scenario with Soviet MiG21s meeting Norwegian F-5s.

Norway used the A model, so not the Tiger II.  But it's a close as I get, but at least the F-5 can use Sidewinder Bs which I know Norway used. So I was looking foe the correct missiles for the MiG21.

Hiromachi can correct me on this. I suspect he has better materials than I. I'd imagine:

You're looking at the very precipice of this more modern generation of MiG-21 which includes the bis. MiG-21S and MiG-21M come to mind. So, two pairs of R-3S's would be the load out I'd believe you'd run into if patrols bumped into each other. If it's a longer range patrol, it'd be of course the triple tank with a single pair of R-3S's. The bis' performance isn't too far above that kind of MiG-21, too. Provided you don't take into account the emergency reheat where you do get a significant boost of power. But, you're also using the Tiger II, so you've got a significant power bump over the wimpy little A. Balances out a bit? 

If your fictional scenario grows into a greater conflagration (more than one mission), I'd expect -21 operations to prefer rockets in ground attack as opposed to bombs as the Soviets seemed to love their rocketry from what I've read and found.

I can try to find more about numbers of aircraft in a flight, if you'd like.

Edited April 18, 2022 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Gunfreak]

7 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Hiromachi can correct me on this. I suspect he has better materials than I. I'd imagine:

You're looking at the very precipice of this more modern generation of MiG-21 which includes the bis. MiG-21S and MiG-21M come to mind. So, two pairs of R-3S's would be the load out I'd believe you'd run into if patrols bumped into each other. If it's a longer range patrol, it'd be of course the triple tank with a single pair of R-3S's. The bis' performance isn't too far above that kind of MiG-21, too. Provided you don't take into account the emergency reheat where you do get a significant boost of power. But, you're also using the Tiger II, so you've got a significant power bump over the wimpy little A. Balances out a bit? 

If your fictional scenario grows into a greater conflagration (more than one mission), I'd expect -21 operations to prefer rockets in ground attack as opposed to bombs as the Soviets seemed to love their rocketry from what I've read and found.

I can try to find more about numbers of aircraft in a flight, if you'd like.

 

That would be great. As of now. It's just a 2 version 2 to dogfight. 

I'm really waiting for the South Atlantic map so I can get my "Norwegian " fjords. But I'm doing some AI vs AI test on Caucasians. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:09 AM, Gunfreak said:

That would be great. As of now. It's just a 2 version 2 to dogfight. 

I'm really waiting for the South Atlantic map so I can get my "Norwegian " fjords. But I'm doing some AI vs AI test on Caucasians. 

From what I've found, a two ship formation is the minimum size of an air patrol. As to be expected. Nothing terribly strange to be found here.

[303_Kermit]

As people said. '69-'72 there is no MiG21bis as far as I remember. So you may simulate some older versions... MF or M maybe? As for a rockets. R13M was brand new design, and it was "just introduced" , there is however a catch. Russians used to press a brand new equipment first into first line regiments. (It was common in whole Warsaw Pact) - they were sending older equipment to second line units. If you're simulating some engagement - probably you're dealing with a front-line unit. Better equipped and trained.