correct as-is Locking Targets Behind Me and Through Mountains

[Teriander]

That's right, my radar can maintain locking targets behind me or through mountains.  This was reported before and dismissed as "Unable to Reproduce."  But I now have a track view to prove it. I hope this helps!

  Here is also a screenshot.  Notice the yellow Star target is behind me.  That is what my radar has locked on.  I was also able to see the lock on through my HMD by turning my head 180 degrees and looking at the locked target through the backseat of my headrest.   Should not happen.  

 Link to the track - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3mgYbB8HaEsc9j_Z2QTR4iEIUWVMfRT/view?usp=sharing

Issue starts around in game clock - 09:43.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by Teriander

[MARLAN_]

Your radar is not locked to anything.

Note that "locked" means STT, not designating a L&S which would be called a designation.

You should (real hornet) be able to designate any offboard track, although currently this does still look like a bug because ED hasn't yet implemented offboard track designation but it's "sort of" correct in the sense the functionality isn't necessarily wrong, just that it was achieved through a bug when it isn't intended in the sim yet. Possibly due to radar aging and designating that contact earlier, I'll check the track.

Edit: Your track won't load for me, but it appears this is from a GS flight so it likely is much too long to watch anyway, try to reproduce the issue in as short of a track as possible.

Edited April 22, 2022 by MARLAN_

[BIGNEWY]

I don't think there is a bug here as mentioned above your L&S is in play here, the track replay sadly does not play back correctly, large online tracks, especially ones which have many scripts can be temperamental.  

[Hulkbust44]

Yeah no bug. The radar is still rembering the track position as you passed by, it is extrapolating from last known data

[Teriander]

@BIGNEWY  

 

I created a video of what's happening.  This never happened prior to the patch.  But you're saying this is normal behavior?  Even the the word "Lock" is on in the top right text of my canopy.  On a target that is 180 degrees behind me...  

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Teriander

[BIGNEWY]

There is a lot going on in the video, I would need to see a track replay to check it further. 

[Teriander]

But this is from the same track I attached in my original post.  For some reason I can play the track fine, but you're unable to...  

Basically if you watch my target box after the kill, it stays tracking a target, even when Im flying away from the target.  That never happened in the past.  My canopy clearly says "LOCK" on a target that is at my 6 O'Clock.    Even flying over 20 miles out and below the mountains.  I wish I could help you further but if you're able to resolve the issue of the track loading on your end, it will help show what's going on....  

Edited April 22, 2022 by Teriander

[Hulkbust44]

47 minutes ago, Teriander said:

@BIGNEWY  

 

I created a video of what's happening.  This never happened prior to the patch.  But you're saying this is normal behavior?  Even the the word "Lock" is on in the top right text of my canopy.  On a target that is 180 degrees behind me...  

 

 

What was your hit age out set to?

[Teriander]

@Hulkbust44

4 or 8 seconds, nothing higher. And when a target is masked by a mountain, it should be a broken box, not a solid one. This is solid the entire time.  It's clearly a bug.  

[maxTRX]

It is a mess in every sense here. First...  press 'emcon' and run to safe area then re-evaluate everything (including HMD/HUD setup) OK, that one was OT.

This is definitely not right. Perhaps related to the ghost radar tracks bug. I've seen worse, the radar showing L&S in one direction and TD box on HMD in a different spot. 

In some of the old OB versions, if you set your 'age' to 16 or 32 secs., it was possible to make a complete circle with the radar maintaining 'extrapolated' position and of course... lining up on an empty TD box. That bug has been fixed a while back. The radar shouldn't extrapolate past the gimbals now, the last time I checked.

Then, playing online probably adds more stuff to consider.

[MARLAN_]

I watched the video, it seems to me there are a handful of bugs/issues at work here.

Bug 1) The Lock/Shoot Light Assembly Lock Indication should display a green light when: the radar is in track (STT) and not track memory. It appears after I tested that in DCS this light illuminates with only a L&S designation.

Bug 2) The track appears to "ghost" and continue flying despite being destroyed, there is another bug report about this (trying to find it, I'll edit in later)

 

Not a Bug) A L&S can be set on any track file, including offboard, and does not require radar contribution. While this MSI feature has not been fully realized in DCS yet, this particular part is not a bug. You could certainly have an L&S behind you if so designated although currently in DCS you require radar contribution so the track will drop after your aging expires (a different topic in of itself)

Edited April 22, 2022 by MARLAN_

[Teriander]

7 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

I watched the video, it seems to me there are a handful of bugs/issues at work here.

Bug 1) The Lock/Shoot Light Assembly Lock Indication should display a green light when the radar is in track (STT) and not track memory, it appears after testing that this light illuminates with only a L&S designation.

Bug 2) The track appears to "ghost" and continue flying despite being destroyed, there is another bug report about this (trying to find it, I'll edit in later)

Not a Bug) A L&S can be set on any track file, including offboard, and does not require radar contribution. While this MSI feature has not been fully realized in DCS yet, this particular part is not a bug. You could certainly have an L&S behind you if so designated although currently in DCS you require radar contribution so the track will drop after your aging expires (a different topic in of itself)

I agree with bug 1 and bug 2.  Question on your third comment...

It is true the the radar contribution will provide updated positioning of a target, but if the target is masked behind a mountain, even with "aging", it is displayed as a broken box only if the radar can see it.  A solid box is only if the target is within line-of-sight.  I'm clearly behind a mountain with a solid box targeted.  Even if the target is behind me, well passed the expired "age" of the tracking remembrance.  Is that accurate?  

For example, if I were to cycle targets that are behind on my SA page.   My radar isn't going to give me a box at my 6 O'CLock.  Is that correct?  

But this video and the track I provided is more than enough proof something is going on.  This shouldn't be a "Correct-as-is" conclusion.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by Teriander

[MARLAN_]

7 minutes ago, Teriander said:

I agree with bug 1 and bug 2.  Question on your third comment...

It is true the the radar contribution will provide updated positioning of a target, but if the target is masked behind a mountain, even with "aging", it is displayed as a broken box only if the radar can see it.  A solid box is only if the target is within line-of-sight.  I'm clearly behind a mountain with a solid box targeted.  Even if the target is behind me, well passed the expired "age" of the tracking remembrance.  Is that accurate?  

For example, if I were to cycle targets that are behind on my SA page.   My radar isn't going to give me a box at my 6 O'CLock.  Is that correct?  

But this video and the track I provided is more than enough proof something is going on.  This shouldn't be a "Correct-as-is" conclusion.  

 

As I understand, the track file will enter a MEM condition when all sensors contributing to the track file are in memory (currently in DCS this is only the radar and offboard, but if/when MSI is improved this would be many more systems), and it will display RMEM if the radar was the only sensor contributing. If that track file was your L&S it will display a segmented box when in RMEM. There shouldn't be a "SHOOT" cue when in RMEM.

So to answer your question: if the track file is in memory and the radar is the only contributor you should get a segmented box, but if an AWACS or another fighter was contributing to the track file it may not be in memory and you could still be displayed a solid box. With the aforementioned bugs like the ghost track, it's possible something was still seeing the "ghost" but it's hard to say without knowing the exact logic behind it in DCS. Currently in DCS target aging is tied to track file memory, but it should only affect the display.

[maxTRX]

20 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

... With the aforementioned bugs like the ghost track, it's possible something was still seeing the "ghost" but it's hard to say without knowing the exact logic behind it in DCS. Currently in DCS target aging is tied to track file memory, but it should only affect the display.

In all A/A missions I recently flew, AWACS was always a doner. I wonder if this 'ghost' bug only shows up when contacts are received via D/L... time to find out, will hop in shortly.

As far as target 'age' is concerned, when designated as an L&S and it's set to say 32 secs., it will be extrapolated for entire 32 secs. outside of gimbals or not. I made a complete circle and the L&S was still there, pointing at the wrong part of the sky when I turned into the bandit again. After 32 secs... blank. AWACS didn't help. Yea, I know, it's hasn't been implemented.

STT lock will always get dropped past the gimbal limits, of course.

 

[maxTRX]

3 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

In all A/A missions I recently flew, AWACS was always a doner. I wonder if this 'ghost' bug only shows up when contacts are received via D/L... time to find out, will hop in shortly.

As far as target 'age' is concerned, when designated as an L&S and it's set to say 32 secs., it will be extrapolated for entire 32 secs. outside of gimbals or not. I made a complete circle and the L&S was still there, pointing at the wrong part of the sky when I turned into the bandit again. After 32 secs... blank. AWACS didn't help. Yea, I know, it's hasn't been implemented.

STT lock will always get dropped past the gimbal limits, of course.

 

Well, I did find out... same bug without AWACS.  It manifests itself differently: in RWS, the ghost might show as AACQ cross. It cannot be locked though. HMD will not show anything. 

In TWS, it might look like part of HAFU, HMD might show a TD box somewhere else, etc.

Now, the target 'age' thing...  If a target is flying straight and level and is designated as an L&S, age set to 32, I can complete a full circle and still have it designated, with AWACS support or without. I also tried to see if FLIR 'sort of' works as MSI. It actually did maintain a lock and 'think' I saw the L&S pegged on the edge of the radar page. (would have to check the video). Especially when using Litening pod, I was able to turn away quite a bit. On SA page the target showed at my 4 o'clock. The FLIR lock was extremely shaky and easy to loose.

 

[maxTRX]

Time for an edit...  I was wrong about MSI between FLIR and radar. It actually does work.

What threw me off was inability to lock the target in point track mode on FLIR. I guess I assumed that once the target was visible to my eyes, it should have enough contrast for PTRK lock. That's why the 'slave' and 'sil' options on FLIR were not visible at that time and my quick conclusion was... OK, it's not working yet.

I flew the mission again and waited till closer range to use PTRK and voila...

This a bit OT for this thread. I just needed to correct my previous statement.

https://youtu.be/GSg32f6WcqQ

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by oldcrusty