Allow throttles to be controllable by both pilots

[FalcoGer]

The wheel brakes are controllable by both pilots simultaneously, and I would like the throttle to be the same. In the event of a DECU failure, the non-flying pilot may manually adjust the throttle to match the torque on both engines for the pilot flying. As it stands now that is not possible since the pilot flying is the only one who can move the throttle levers.

[Mr_sukebe]

Can I please suggest that you consider the implications of that, i.e. the potential for conflicting values for the throttle.

Can't say I'm convinced that it's a particularly great idea.

[Raptor9]

The difference between the wheel brakes and the power levers are that the wheel brakes can be applied independently of the other crewstation, so that one or both crewmembers can apply brakes with the same result. The power levers are physically linked between crewstations, just like the flight controls. As Mr_sukebe pointed out, this would create a conflict just as it would if both crewmembers were applying opposite inputs with the cyclic.

[FalcoGer]

Easy solution: the latest input would be used for the actual value, just like with flight controls. When you hand over controls, the values stay the same until you make an input, at which time the value jumps, which is why it's a good idea to trim (in DCS) before handing it over.

I for one don't use an axis bind to bind to the throttles, because it's just not needed and I don't have too many spare axis to give away to something that's generally staying the same all flight long anyway. So I just use num+/num- or the mouse with click and drag, both of those options would work just fine since they use relative adjustments instead of absolute values like an axis would.

Consider this: Both Pilot and CPG use a springless cyclic, one goes full left, the other (without effect because they're not in control from DCS' point of view) goes full right. Then the controls are transferred. Obviously you can't physically link the joysticks, unless they have force feedback. What now? You get the same problem. It's the same problem with the same solution. Last input is the value used. Unless the CPG moves the stick after control transfer, no action is taken within DCS as the axis values are not updated.

Edited July 16, 2022 by FalcoGer

[Frederf]

"Would create a conflict" so would such a thing happen in reality. Simulation is not about avoiding conflicts but simulating reality.

Linked, sprung controls (cyclic) could be additive so that input would represent force, not displacement. Pilot and copilot apply 10 pounds of force in opposite directions, stick remains. Pilot applies 20 pounds then stick position is biased to his displacement input. Stick in a center results in a null input from that user.

Linked, unsprung controls (collective) could be most recent command with a blending delay. Pilot could use cyclic with

Independent controls (brakes) would just be a 4-input condition to an aircraft system. There's no issue. If the pilot and copilot humans have difficulty coordinating their inputs that's not an issue with the simulation.

The "transfer of control" paradigm is not a good one relative to reality especially with the permission setups.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Frederf said:

"Would create a conflict" so would such a thing happen in reality. Simulation is not about avoiding conflicts but simulating reality.

In real life you have linked controls and power levers, so it is impossible to move them in different directions or have them set at different values; which is the case with multiplayer when you have two sets of controls that are physically displaced in real life, yet no response is being given. Further, by changing input magnitudes to represent force, now you're interfering with how the force trim and Flight Management Computer works, and then you would have to handle the two users that might have different trimmer settings for their hardware.

I know full well what simulation is about, and I understand the intent behind DCS, which is a simulation game. In the pursuit of absolute "realism" for a dual-control cockpit you are diluting the rest of the entire experience, and creating more issues than it all is worth.

[FalcoGer]

The permissions system really needs some changes. When the pilot's game freezes you can't take control because he's unable to click accept. When you just want to take control you can't do so quickly because he needs to grab his mouse and awkwardly place it relatively precisely to click accept, which in a pinch is not ideal. In VR the pilot might not even notice the control request because the windows don't pop up in an absolute position but float around in a fixed position relative to the cockpit.

Then you might want your CPG to handle your throttle but not your flight controls, currently impossible.

I really don't see an issue with last commanded position overrides the previous position. More options are always good. They just need to be in the right place. For example FCR mounted doesn't belong in the ME but in the rearm screen. This gives both players and mission makers options. Don't want apaches to fly with radars? Prohibit them, done. Want to fly without radars anyway despite them being fitted in the ME? Pull them off. Instead we get more complexity at the wrong position, check boxes that need to be remembered to be checked or not checked.
Want to hand over controls without authorization requests? Well, you better hope the mission designer put the drop down list to what you prefer, because you get no say in it. That belongs into the special options for the pilot, not the mission editor. That's a player preference (aka options menu), not a mission or aircraft thing.

 

And finally
Want your CPG to be able to handle your throttles for you in the case of a DECU failure? Well, that also belongs into special options. I don't see an issue or conflict past anything we have anyway. For example every time you switch control, even now, if the aircraft is not trimmed beforehand you get a control conflict because your stick will be in a different position than the other crew member's stick at the point of handover. How is this solved in DCS right now?

Correct: It isn't. Last input overrides the previous input. You don't move your stick after handover, then nothing happens. any axis value changes and the aircraft stick snaps to a new position instantly. I agree that this will cause issues, for example an unstable axis being bound to throttles on the copilot that twitches values between say 2 and 3 (out of 100), despite being pulled all the way back and should be a constant 0, which would not be interfering with the pilot's input. This would prevent throttles to be applied, but that can be solved by having the CPG unbind the axis or at least having a modifier on it.

Edited July 18, 2022 by FalcoGer

[Frederf]

3 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

In the pursuit of absolute "realism" for a dual-control cockpit you are diluting the rest of the entire experience, and creating more issues than it all is worth.

Your opinion and I disagree.

[Raptor9]

11 minutes ago, Frederf said:

Your opinion and I disagree.

That is certainly within your prerogative.

[Mr_sukebe]

The idea of “last user input” takes precedence, yep, I could see how that could work.

If it were to be done:

- the users might need dead zones set on their throttles.  You wouldn’t want precedence to be given to to a pilot, just because his throttle suffers from “jitter”

- if it’s done for throttle, will there be a request to do it for the joystick.  If so, should that be considered?

- I’d want it as a option that I could disable in game, and also the option to have a warning displayed to advise that throttle control has been taken by my copilot

[Scaley]

Personally I'd like to see this taken a step further with the ability to hand over particular controls (including the throttles) between the crew. This would allow a better approach to helping people new to helicopters learn to fly them as you could let people  get used to handling one control at a time the way most people are taught IRL.  

[Exorcet]

An additional safety for this would be to require the 2nd pilot to match the original control position before handing over the controls. That would reduce jumpiness in transition.

[FalcoGer]

43 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

An additional safety for this would be to require the 2nd pilot to match the original control position before handing over the controls. That would reduce jumpiness in transition.

You mean like you press the button to take control and then move the axis somewhat close to the other pilot's before control is actually transferred? What of no axis is bound, like for example I don't have the throttles bound to an axis, so I can't match it.

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

You mean like you press the button to take control and then move the axis somewhat close to the other pilot's before control is actually transferred? What of no axis is bound, like for example I don't have the throttles bound to an axis, so I can't match it.

There are throttle step keys aren't there? You should be able to use those to get it close. If that's not precise enough perhaps a button could be added to set the throttle to the right position, only keyboard users would need it since it wouldn't work with a HOTAS.