Ground unit heat problems

[tae.]

Hi all, hope you are doing well.

I have quietly been lurking in this subforum since it became a thing along with the new FLIR system and have read every thread, reason and solution for the FLIR being the way it is. There are definitely things being said that I disagree with, and a lot of issues that completely prevent FLIR from being used in what I would personally describe as "most normal situations", in particular related to the way the heat of ground units works.

It's been a few months now since the new FLIR was implemented, and none of the issues I have observed have been addressed, so I would like to present some findings in this bug report that I hope will be addressed in the future.

First let's get the basics out of the way:

• I am using the F-16C module to test.
• The unit I am using to test is the BTR-82A, which most definitely has textures compatible with the new FLIR system. I was able to confirm this by setting one to drive around, and was able to easily observe the BTRs engine in FLIR at the rear of the unit - alongside firing, this is the only instance in which the current FLIR implementation works for ground units. 
• All of my tests are done in both day and night conditions, it makes no difference to the core problem, however cold units are slightly easier to spot at night (unsure if intended).

Before I talk about the core issues let me be clear in saying that the FLIR itself seems to work fine, it is unit heat that is non-functional. Sure the FLIR picture could use some adjustments still, but this is not something I am concerned about as I'm sure it is being worked on.

In summary, there are three core problems:

1. Idle / non-moving units never heat up, nor is there any way to spawn them heated up. In other threads it is claimed that units will spawn at max heat if activated late with a trigger or script, this is false (see attached .miz and track files).
2. Static vehicle objects (airfield equipment, cars, trucks that are part of the map) always start at maximum heat. There is no way to control this, and it makes using airfields as areas of interest in missions completely impossible, as all the actual targets are ice cold, while random equipment that cannot be removed or controlled or that has any consequence at all is hotter than the sun (see attached track files). The only caveat to this is that it seems there are some units that do not have FLIR textures, and these seem to be still cold (need more testing here). but anything with FLIR textures will use the maximum heat ones, or perhaps it is the other way around where things without textures are white hot and textured objects are cold, I just don't know and cannot test this myself - whichever one it is there is a clear problem here.
3. The only way to add heat to a unit is for it to move or fire. A unit sitting idle will not heat up drastically over any length of time, and no external factors other than movement will create a noticeable thermal difference. It is not my place to say whether this is accurate or not, but for the sake of the FLIR being usable in any way, I feel it is necessary that there is *some* method provided to us by which units can heat up, without having to have them move around, which creates a big performance impact and can complicate many missions.

 

In closing, I would personally like to see more control over how units heat up or at least a "fix" for late activated units spawning completely cold, as the large majority of DCS missions have ground units plopped down not moving at all with no way to get them to move unless you hop in a Game Master slot with Combined Arms and have a little drive around. In all of the missions I have played as of late, it seems to be impossible to use the FLIR reliably at all, as most missions are designed with performance in mind or have a dynamic nature that prevents hand-crafted waypoints, routes and movement from being an option. If there are any questions or problems with the miz, tracks or any of the information I have presented, please let me know.

 

Attached Files Summary

• FLIR_Testing.miz - A simple mission with an air-spawned F-16C just outside of a trigger zone "iZ1" which late-activates a single BTR-82A at Vaziani. The F-16C already has a steerpoint on the position of the BTR, so FLIR can be quickly tested.
• static_unit_full_heat.trk - A track file demonstrating several units that are just part of Caucasus giving off super hot thermals on the F-16C's targeting pod. I looked around Sochi-Adler for this example, but many other airfields have the same problem.
• actual_unit_no_heat.trk - A track file demonstrating the late-activated BTR-82A sitting idle at Vaziani. It is completely cold, despite being late activated. Also look at some super hot airfield equipment afterwards.
• actual_unit_movement_heat.trk - A track file demonstrating the late-activated BTR-82A driving in circles, causing the engine to properly heat up. This can be easily replicated by adding a bunch of waypoints to the BTR in the attached miz. Note that it takes a minute or two into the track for the engine to heat up from the movement, but it does work properly.

FLIR_Testing.miz actual_unit_movement_heat.trk actual_unit_no_heat.trk static_unit_full_heat.trk

Edited July 24, 2022 by tae.

[Rex854Warrior]

Indeed it is very annoying, it doesn't even seem like the disperse under fire option works too well, which could sort of help. It's a crappy solution to a problem that could easily be solved via ME options and scripting functions (please sync them in MP btw)

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rex854Warrior

[FusRoPotato]

I've also noticed that some units, if respawned by MOOSE or similar, won't heat up even if they are moving around or firing.

[tae.]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:53 AM, FusRoPotato said:

I've also noticed that some units, if respawned by MOOSE or similar, won't heat up even if they are moving around or firing.

I have not personally noticed this, but it may be due to limited testing on my part. There are two things I can suggest - firstly it might be that the units maybe didn't move around or fire enough - it does take a little bit of time for the heat to build up. I wasn't able to test heat build-up on firing much, but movement can take 1-2 minutes of constant movement for the engine to become noticeably hot. Firing weapons, I would imagine, *should* be much quicker, but that is just a guess on my part, so take it with a grain of salt.

Secondly, it may be that the units in question do not have proper textures for the new FLIR system, as pointed out in other threads. I wish we had a list of what units do and don't have textures on the new system, but we do not. Some units apparently are still WIP on the new FLIR, and we just have to "accept" this for now. I can tell you a few units that most definitely have textures for it, such as the BTR-82A, but compiling a full list would take a monstrous amount of time on the user-end sadly.

I will be happy to test, record trackfiles, create sample .miz for these issues until the developer addresses this topic / investigates the issue, which sadly doesn't seem to have happened yet (all of the files I uploaded are still 0 downloads). I think this issue is one of the biggest problems with modern aircraft performing an air to ground combat role right now, and I am still flying extensive air to ground sorties in my F-16C multiple times a week with my squadron, and it is a constant struggle for all of us to spot targets with a FLIR that is literally completely non-functioning, with no way to script or change the mission to "force" it to work. Search and destroy, CAS, night ops, and a few other things are just a complete no-go until this situation gets better sadly.

Edited August 22, 2022 by tae.

[tae.]

This is still a problem as of the latest patch.

The issue was claimed to be fixed in the patch notes, but it was not fixed!

PLEASE download the supplied .miz and track files, it makes both issues EXTREMELY obvious:

1. Ground units DO NOT have heat on Late Activation both by script and by ME Trigger.

2. Static vehicles (NOT spawned by mission author) have ridiculously high / MAX heat.

FLIR is still completely unusable on units that do not move!

Edited September 22, 2022 by tae.

[HC_Official]

doing some playing around in the ME today and yes , spawned units are indeed cold

[oldcrusty]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:23 AM, mitchelrobertson said:

I thought it was me, lol.  I watch a youtube video of a guy dropping MavFs in flir mode and the targets glow green.  I get in my bird and the only way I can see anything at all is with CCV mode instead.  Is this why moving tgts are so hard to tgt with the MavF?

Yep, I fired some IR Mavs on moving targets yesterday. Today's patch didn't include any IR fixes. Well, nothing in the notes.  Without getting too blabby... the MavF's seeker sucks!

The FLIR worked fine in my mission since by the time I arrived on station, the vehicles were wormed up and glowing.  The only problem was, as soon as the first vehicle gets hit, the rest of them start dispersing and somehow they cool off almost immediately (ambient temp. was moderate at 1800 local (Syria) 

[tae.]

Short update on this. I posted a duplicate report in the DCS Discord with hopes of it getting more visibility - and it did. It was supposed to be fixed in 2.8, but slipped out of the patch. However now it has been properly reported, and a fix should be coming in the near future.

[Jenson]

On 9/23/2022 at 7:37 AM, tae. said:

This is still a problem as of the latest patch.

The issue was claimed to be fixed in the patch notes, but it was not fixed!

PLEASE download the supplied .miz and track files, it makes both issues EXTREMELY obvious:

1. Ground units DO NOT have heat on Late Activation both by script and by ME Trigger.

2. Static vehicles (NOT spawned by mission author) have ridiculously high / MAX heat.

FLIR is still completely unusable on units that do not move!

 

Thanks Tae, your effort and detailed explanation in the original thread was really helpful. At least, there is a walk-around solution for precise strike mission - put static object on the ground to make them max heat, and so they would stand out from the environment. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Jenson

[tae.]

6 hours ago, Jenson said:

Thanks Tae, your effort and detailed explanation in the original thread was really helpful. At least, there is a walk-around solution for precise strike mission - put static object on the ground to make them max heat, and so they would stand out from the environment. 

 

Indeed. I should add that I raised a duplicate bug report for this issue on the official Discord, and it got a little bit more attention. The unit heat situation has improved a lot since then, but there are still some outstanding issues, in particular certain units still show completely cold, such as trucks. This is seemingly a texture issue which will hopefully be fixed over time as more vehicles are updated to the new FLIR.