Fix the Vortex ring state on helicopters?

[Gunfreak]

So according to this from a real chopper pilot all the DCS copters except the apache goes into VRS way to easily.

Seems like something to be fixed?

https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/real-pilot-impressions-ah-64d-apache-dcs

[sirrah]

27 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

So according to this from a real chopper pilot all the DCS copters except the apache goes into VRS way to easily.

Seems like something to be fixed?

https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/real-pilot-impressions-ah-64d-apache-dcs

Thanks for that link. Very interesting review 

On topic: Not saying he's wrong (I'm not in any way the person to claim so), but did he actually flew the Hind irl? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ED use the knowledge of SME's during their Hind module development? (Perhaps even former Hind pilots?)

Again, not saying I don't believe him, just wondering what his statement is based on. I mean, spec wise, the Hind and Apache are completely different. I can imagine that their flight characteristics show very little similarities.

[Gunfreak]

16 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Thanks for that link. Very interesting review 

On topic: Not saying he's wrong (I'm not in any way the person to claim so), but did he actually flew the Hind irl? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ED use the knowledge of SME's during their Hind module development? (Perhaps even former Hind pilots?)

Again, not saying I don't believe him, just wondering what his statement is based on. I mean, spec wise, the Hind and Apache are completely different. I can imagine that their flight characteristics show very little similarities.

I think he means in general all the other helicopters are too prone to VRS, it might be that the hind goes into VRS  easier then other copters. But VRS are based on physics that are universal. I haven't flown hind in DCS but I have flown the Huey and it can be extremely brutal. I've always thought it's impossible to fly the Huey like real pilots do. They seem to be able to decelerate at a speed that would give a dcs Huey VRS 100% of the time. You have to treat it like a fragile porcelain bowl. And I'm not pilot. So I can't say that's wrong. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Gunfreak

[Mars Exulte]

59 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

So according to this from a real chopper pilot all the DCS copters except the apache goes into VRS way to easily.

This is called ''anecdotal evidence''. It's also irrelevant. If a person has flown a specific aircraft, they can attest to accuracy. They cannot ''in general'' attest to something though because each design is different. That is why a former F-16 pilot can comment on its flight model, but his opinion on say, a Tornado or Sukhoi he's never flown would be largely irrelevant.

59 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Seems like something to be fixed?

Not necessarily. Certainly not just because of a blog.

3 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

But VRS are based on physics that are universal.

  Physics are indeed universal. And each aircraft interacts with them in a different way, thus the extensive period of testing before production to confirm that what they expected on the drawing board matches up with its behavior in the air and all the little tweaks that result from curing unforeseen issues (like the F-18 rudder toe in because it's incapable of leaving the ground without it)

[Gunfreak]

1 minute ago, Mars Exulte said:

This is called ''anecdotal evidence''. It's also irrelevant. If a person has flown a specific aircraft, they can attest to accuracy. They cannot ''in general'' attest to something though because each design is different. That is why a former F-16 pilot can comment on its flight model, but his opinion on say, a Tornado or Sukhoi he's never flown would be largely irrelevant.

Not necessarily. Certainly not just because of a blog.

Apperantly many real chopper pilots have made this observation, and I doubt he has only ever flown an apache,  I assume he's flown many choppers during his training and career. 

[Mars Exulte]

2 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I assume he's flown many choppers during his training and career. 

   Very likely, yes. Also not relevant unless he's flown THESE choppers, or at least something very similar. Most Apache pilots do not also have Hind experience for example, and the two have exactly zero commonality aside from both having rotors.

Edit:

In short, you have created a wishlist thread, over a ''problem'' you don't even know if it exists, based on some other guy's opinion that may or may not be relevant. That's not how this sort of thing works.

If you believe you have found a problem, you gather evidence (ie ACTUAL hard evidence that supports your claim, a internet blog is not evidence, something like charts, physical proof etc), provide proof of how it should be instead (requiring hard evidence, charts, etc, not just ''I think because OBVS PHYSICS'').

You haven't done anything wrong, but this thread isn't going to be taken seriously because it's not. To even claim ''VRS WRONG ALL HELOS FIX ED'' is pointless. You need to do a bug report on each individual aircraft you believe is wrong, show HOW and WHY it's wrong IN DETAIL, and HOW it SHOULD BE in DETAIL. One by one. A blanket statement like this, based on a blog, is pointless.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mars Exulte

[Gunfreak]

31 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

   Very likely, yes. Also not relevant unless he's flown THESE choppers, or at least something very similar. Most Apache pilots do not also have Hind experience for example, and the two have exactly zero commonality aside from both having rotors.

Edit:

In short, you have created a wishlist thread, over a ''problem'' you don't even know if it exists, based on some other guy's opinion that may or may not be relevant. That's not how this sort of thing works.

If you believe you have found a problem, you gather evidence (ie ACTUAL hard evidence that supports your claim, a internet blog is not evidence, something like charts, physical proof etc), provide proof of how it should be instead (requiring hard evidence, charts, etc, not just ''I think because OBVS PHYSICS'').

You haven't done anything wrong, but this thread isn't going to be taken seriously because it's not. To even claim ''VRS WRONG ALL HELOS FIX ED'' is pointless. You need to do a bug report on each individual aircraft you believe is wrong, show HOW and WHY it's wrong IN DETAIL, and HOW it SHOULD BE in DETAIL. One by one. A blanket statement like this, based on a blog, is pointless.

 

It is relevant,  if a P51 pilot said Spitfires don't stall while flying straight at 180mph. Then he doesn't have to have flown a spitfire,  just have to know about basics of how a plane works.

He is saying something is fundamentally wrong with all the helicopters as in goes against the  laws of physics. Not this plane has slightly wrong quirks (as in P51 stalls at in a turn at 147mph and not 153mph). But that it's fundamentally wrong. As in if helicopters actually was this prone to VRS. Then no helicopters would be deemed safe enough to ever get used in civil or military aviation. 

[Mars Exulte]

7 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Then no helicopters would be deemed safe enough to ever get used in civil or military aviation. 

  Which is an absurd statement completely detached from reality, which you would know if you took more than a cursory glance at aviation history from the 1800s up to present day.

 

  For the sake of argument, let's say this reasoning point isn't complete bollocks (it absolutely is) and let's say that real life helicopters don't enter VRS as easily as they do in DCS, but we'll imagine the world if they DID... Do know what that world would look like? Would it be a helicopterless world? No. Training would adjust and pilots would avoid regimes that endanger the aircraft, JUST LIKE THEY ALREADY DO. You're talking about moving the edges of the envelope. Pilots stay inside those parameters, that's it. That's what their training is for. But they wouldn't ''ban helicopters'' because they're ''too dangerous'' and believing they would is asinine.

  Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's not. But an anecdotal internet blurb isn't evidence. Your gut feeling on airworthiness and history is equally irrelevant, besides being blatantly incorrect.

 I will quote what I said already.

8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

You need to do a bug report on each individual aircraft you believe is wrong, show HOW and WHY it's wrong IN DETAIL, and HOW it SHOULD BE in DETAIL. One by one. A blanket statement like this, based on a blog, is pointless.

  If you can't or won't do that, then you'll get nothing. ''VRS WRONG ED FIX'' Isn't going to yield any results EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT because it's just blanket nonsense. It's not even YOUR blanket nonsense, it's SECONDHAND blanket nonsense @@

Edited September 21, 2022 by Mars Exulte