India Foxt Echo - F-104S-ASA

[GUFA]

So I recently posted this appeal on the Aerges page:

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Posted 9 minutes ago (edited)

I really hope that Aerges next FF module/s are the Dassault Mirage 3/5/50 for a couple of reasons.

Despite seeing some cg picks of Argentine Mirage 3 from RAZBAM. RAZBAM itself seems to be denying that they are developing a Mirage 3  anytime soon. As far as I understand they are developing an AI model Mirage 3 Argentine spec as part of The South Atlantic Asset Pack.

The Mirage 3 was used by the Spanish Air Force under the designation C. 11 at the start of 1970s. For those that are lobbying for F-104 Starfighter numbers acquired were roughly the same (slightly more mirages acquired). Neither would be hard for Aerges to develop as getting hold of Subject Matter Experts for both would be easy both from a builder and user perspective. I just think that an Aerges Mirage 3/5/50 would be the way to go because:

A: India Foxt Echo VS seems to be leaning in the direction of developing a F-104 module after they finish the G-91. Seeing that the G-91 isn't a particularly complex aircraft (technically speaking) they may well be able to Build the F-104 quite quickly. 6S Duke seems to be teasing an IFE F-104s. Personally I would definitely love a F-104s-ASA chucking Sidewinder and Aspides in the sandbox.

Just make sure to Add the underbody Sidewinder rails:)

 

B: For Aerges the Mirage 3/5/50 the already have half built these Mirages when they built the F-1. The Atar in the F-1 is an update/upgrade of the 3's engine not a "Clean sheet" design. The Radar in the F-1 is an evolution of the 3's sensor (Thomson CSF Cyrano Ibis for the 3 with Cyrano 4 equipping the F-1). The main work for Aerges would be in the flight model not the engine/sensor.

These factors indicate to me (obviously not a software developer) that an Aerges developed 3/5/50 could be developed quite quickly. And Having a Mirage 3 in a shorter development timescale (3-4 yrs for a 3 with a 5 and a 50 following later). I would probably go this route, A Radar Mirage 3 first, a Glass nose 5 second and a 50 third. Leave the "Zipper to IFE, hopefully they can get an F-104s- ASA in 5-6yrs after the "Gina".

AND JUST BE CLEAR A KFIR IS NOT A MIRAGE 3.

 

I" want both but this plan would (hopefully) get us both faster

Edited 8 minutes ago by GUFA

 

So Now I thought I would 'Dot the I, Cross the T". So How bout it 6S Duke, come onnn I know ya want to:).

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by GUFA
grammer fix

[6S.Duke]

Hi Gufa!

Just to be clear, I'm not teasing for the F-104 despite our team would like to make it as Italy was the main user of this aircraft. 

I can only talk about our team and not about projects of other 3rd parties, at the moment we are only investigating what people would like to see in DCS World in the future.

Following this survey and taking into account the licences that ED already provided to other 3rd paries, we will choose our next project (it could be one of the aircraft listed in our pool, including the Aerogallo ).

Thank you for this post, much interesting!

Cheers,

Duke

[gianlu320]

Hey Duke

I really hope you'll make the 104, I think you are the best candidates to make one.

The S ASA would be a dream, ASA M even better

Just saying......

Take care

[GUFA]

Thanks Duke looking forward to adding M 339 as my first combat module (DCS virgin here). Think it would make a great Fast FAC plane for the inexperienced.

19 minutes ago, 6S.Duke said:

I can only talk about our team and not about projects of other 3rd parties

Didn't mean to imply IFE should talk for other 3rd parties.I was just being Cheeky lobbying/ floating the Idea of the Starfighter "Aerogallo"? as the next module after the "Gina" is done, mainly to the community.

[Mig Fulcrum]

If there will be a 104 let it be a G, not S please

But I still hope for a AMX

[GUFA]

1 hour ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

If there will be a 104 let it be a G, not S please

I Would like both/all But if I had to choose between one/ which comes first, the S it would be. I think if you tallied opinions of the combat users they probably wouldn't rate its attack capabilities. The USAF panned it quite hard after it deployed to Vietnam. Besides something from the early 60s that you can chuck Sparrows/ Aspides at OPFOR  with(aside from the F-4) should add a great choice and would be good for balance for multiplayer campaign designers (as I aspire to be). This is one of the deficiencies in DCS at the moment not enough 50s-80s FB currently.

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

If there will be a 104 let it be a G, not S please

Just like the G, the S has sub-variants that branch off into air-defense or ground-attack.

[Mig Fulcrum]

1 ora fa, Bremspropeller ha scritto:

Just like the G, the S has sub-variants that branch off into air-defense or ground-attack.

Yes but the S is a more sophisticated machine, someting like a poor-man F-4.

The G is the "original" Starfighter (yes I know it's not an A or C but still) with only AIM-9s, wildely exported with even some minor AG capabilities, a '60s machine. With weapons limitation it can pretend to be a A (apart from the engine a 10% more powerful).

I'm not very interested in a modernized but niche version even if it's more capable in its role.

[Bremspropeller]

8 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

Yes but the S is a more sophisticated machine, someting like a poor-man F-4.

The G is the "original" Starfighter (yes I know it's not an A or C but still) with only AIM-9s, wildely exported with even some minor AG capabilities, a '60s machine. With weapons limitation it can pretend to be a A (apart from the engine a 10% more powerful).

I'm not very interested in a modernized but niche version even if it's more capable in its role.

You can pretend to be an A by just hanging Sidewinders on it. As a bonus, the -19 motor is going to improve T/W over the G, making it feelmore like an A. And you get the additional fins to make you go a little faster legally.

The G already has a much better radar than the A, plus INS. You may just as well use the S. Additionally the S has more hardpoins (A-A or A-G) than the G.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Volator]

4 hours ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

If there will be a 104 let it be a G, not S please

+1

F-104G users: Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Taiwan, Spain

F-104S users: Italy

...

[GUFA]

6 hours ago, Volator said:

F-104G users: Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Taiwan, Spain

F-104S users: Italy

So your point?

 

7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

You can pretend to be an A by just hanging Sidewinders on it. As a bonus, the -19 motor is going to improve T/W over the G, making it feel more like an A. And you get the additional fins to make you go a little faster legally.

And that's the thing of it. in a 60s scenario simply use a basic loadout. As you move through the 70s,80s,90s you add BVR and even Anti Ship missiles (If you are lobbying for the "G" surely you would want to carry the Kormoran ASCM).

Also I was reasonably sure Italian Airforce f-104s had the capability to use Marte ASM. And Norwegian F-104s could fire AGM 119 Penguin ASM. Cant seem to find confirmation though. Does anyone know if this is correct?

 

[GUFA]

7 hours ago, Volator said:

F-104G users: Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Taiwan, Spain

F-104S users: Italy

Taiwan Used "A" model Denmark,Norway and Turkey used Canadair CF-104s.

[Otto pallen]

10 ore fa, Volator ha scritto:

+1

F-104G users: Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Taiwan, Spain

F-104S users: Italy

...

F-104S users: Italy, Turkey 

 

[Volator]

10 minutes ago, Otto pallen said:

F-104S users: Italy, Turkey 

 

You are right, I missed that.

 

3 hours ago, GUFA said:

So your point?

Make an educated guess

3 hours ago, GUFA said:

Taiwan Used "A" model Denmark,Norway and Turkey used Canadair CF-104s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter_operators

[GUFA]

21 minutes ago, Volator said:

3 hours ago, GUFA said:

So your point?

Make an educated guess

I got what you meant Did you get what I meant

 

36 minutes ago, Otto pallen said:

F-104S users: Italy, Turkey 

Thought they only used the CF-104, Were these attrition buys or did they buy it for the Ital AF specific capabilities eg: BVR Sparrow and/or Aspide?

[GUFA]

1 hour ago, Volator said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter_operators

Yeah funny I got infomation off of this Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter

So we were both right and wrong as many users used mixes of F-104Gs with CF-104s and Turkey even bought F-104Ss. And in Taiwan's case it used new builds and surplus, this is the quote from the Wiki page you supplied:

"ROC operated a total of 282 aircraft funded by the Military Assistance Program (MAP); a mixture of new-build and surplus F-104A, -B, -D, -G, -J, -DJ, RF-104G, and TF-104G were used. The Starfighter was phased out of Taiwanese service by 1997.^"

So not quite as cut and dried as we(both) believed. Simple fact most users including Germany who was the main user procured F-104g models A: they were cheap, B: the Starfighter was not they're only option in regards to the Fighter role, and C: Production in Italy didn't start in Italy for 2 years after the German start and probably the same for Canadair builds. So even though F-104g was the most prolific model does not invalidate my case for F-104s (ASA) as the Italian's also built 240+ Aeritalia F-104s. Or the Mitsubishi 200+ F104Js or the 200 CF-104s built by Canadair. Not to mention what Lockheed built itself.

No rather have a Zipper that can much more than the F-104g....

 

[Bremspropeller]

4 hours ago, GUFA said:

Thought they only used the CF-104, Were these attrition buys or did they buy it for the Ital AF specific capabilities eg: BVR Sparrow and/or Aspide?

There is a ground-attack version of the S, just like the G branches off into AA and AG (and naval) subversions. The AG S cannot carry/ shoot the Aspide/ Sparrow.

See those racks below the intakes? They're new on the S.*

Note the AIM-9 on the outboard (also new on the S) wing-pylons.

The AA S subvariant doesn't have a gun, as that space is taken up by the computers required for guiding the Sparrow.

_____________________________

* They're not related to the catamaran-racks of the G:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wNFN-E.htm

Edited October 2, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Otto pallen]

this is a 104S ex Turkish Aviation now used as a gardian gate, unmistakable the finn in the tail typical of the S version

[GUFA]

GOD DAMMMMN...

Thing of Beauty.

Nothing gets me good and stiff as does a Starfighter, Especially F-104s Variants

We really need the "Affordable" option to the F-4 for multiplayer even if it doesn't have a gun. Simple fact with the Mig 23 in development and I really want the Foxbat/Foxhound as official modules at some stage. this would provide at least some balance in that mid 70s time space in multiplayer.Heck I say do both the F-104s and the "GEE". Very much like to kill ships with Kormoran, and Penguin and if Italian "S" models can also fire "Marte" well "that's just the cherry on top".

Edited October 5, 2022 by GUFA
grammar fix

[Bremspropeller]

If somebody will do the 104, they'll need to do the

 

F-104G (AG and naval sub-versions)

TF-104G (because it's cool and duals are fun)

F-104S (and possibly the ASA uprade)

 

If they're smart, they'll start with the TF/F-104G in one package and sell the F-104S and F-104S-ASA as another package. If they're really smart, they'll include the naval G (Kormoran missiles and AS 30 missiles) in the 104S package, as the later german naval versions all had the -J1K motor (long nozzle) and had the post '68 Martin Baker seat mod. That way, you'd get a good deal of coverage of sub-variants.

[Mig Fulcrum]

1 ora fa, Bremspropeller ha scritto:

If somebody will do the 104, they'll need to do the

 

F-104G (AG and naval sub-versions)

TF-104G (because it's cool and duals are fun)

F-104S (and possibly the ASA uprade)

 

If they're smart, they'll start with the TF/F-104G in one package and sell the F-104S and F-104S-ASA as another package. If they're really smart, they'll include the naval G (Kormoran missiles and AS 30 missiles) in the 104S package, as the later german naval versions all had the -J1K motor (long nozzle) and had the post '68 Martin Baker seat mod. That way, you'd get a good deal of coverage of sub-variants.

Then you only miss the F-104C for Vietnam missions and the original A (and pretty similar) 

[Bremspropeller]

4 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

Then you only miss the F-104C for Vietnam missions and the original A (and pretty similar) 

I do realize that, however:

- the G can do everything the C can do (but better), except for the bolt-on refuelling probe

- the A can't do much at all (except for the 319FIS -19 motor conversions, which would be awesome to have)

Then there's the elephant in the room, which is the missing Vietnam map

[GUFA]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:18 PM, Bremspropeller said:

If somebody will do the 104, they'll need to do the

 

F-104G (AG and naval sub-versions)

TF-104G (because it's cool and duals are fun)

F-104S (and possibly the ASA uprade)

 I am 100% on board with this proposal . The only downside is the NAFT crowd gripes .

 

On 10/4/2022 at 12:53 AM, Bremspropeller said:

the G can do everything the C can do (but better), except for the bolt-on refuelling probe

Yeah just give the "GEE" the bolt-on and call it a C.

On 10/4/2022 at 12:46 AM, Mig Fulcrum said:

Then you only miss the F-104C for Vietnam missions and the original A (and pretty similar)

Got to be a Indochina/ Thai Peninsula map so we can play dominoes.

[Agg]

On 10/2/2022 at 6:14 AM, GUFA said:

Also I was reasonably sure Italian Airforce f-104s had the capability to use Marte ASM. And Norwegian F-104s could fire AGM 119 Penguin ASM. Cant seem to find confirmation though. Does anyone know if this is correct?

 

No, the Norwegian F-104s were not able to fire Penguins, the picture is from a test fitting and the missile is just a mock-up. The only aircraft to carry the Penguin in Norway was the F-16.

[GUFA]

1 hour ago, Agg said:

No, the Norwegian F-104s were not able to fire Penguins, the picture is from a test fitting and the missile is just a mock-up. The only aircraft to carry the Penguin in Norway was the F-16.

So they didn't carry out out any test firings? For me, I just want a non emitting ASM, sure it's no good for AAW destroyers/cruisers. I'm more interested in the capability. Norwegian F-16s were A/B +MLU birds Seeing we have the USAF spec Viper "Cee" we aren't getting it on that bird. I'd be willing to use a little "creative license" to see the Zipper gain an additional  ASuW capability. And as great as mods go, I want something that doesn't break with the next update.

 

Also would like a Zipper that can carry a B-43, not fair REDFOR gets all the fun

Edited October 14, 2022 by GUFA