J-84

[CBStu]

I am flying a mission that uses J-84s to take out 4 scud launchers. So I figure that using waypoint designate should work. While sitting on the carrier I go to HSI and look for the list of WPs in Seq1. WPs 1, 2, 3 are the route. There are also WPs 4, 5, 6, and 7 which have a grid listed. I add in lat/lon/altitude. They are provided in the 6 digit format which the plane accepts. So I take off and get about 20M from the target. On the SA page I click to scroll through WPs to get to WP4 and WPs 4-7 do not exist. After WP3 the next is WP0. I am on my 5th flight trying to hit these scuds and can't figure out what I may be doing wrong. 

[Harker]

Sounds like your WP0-3 are in SEQ1, but WP4-6 are not. If you have SEQ boxed on the HSI/SA, then you can only access the WPs of that Sequence.

Unbox SEQ (button press will unbox the current SEQ and present the next one, unboxed - you can cycle through the three available sequences like that).

Or you can select SEQUFC on the HSI->DATA->WYPT page, then INS on the UFC and then select the WP you want to add to the current Sequence and hit Enter.

Lastly, consider that 6-digit MGRS might be not sufficient for JDAM targeting. Consider providing a 10-digit input (if you have it). You can switch over to the precise coordinate format by boxing the relevant option at the bottom of the same page as mentioned above.

[CBStu]

Harker I understand what you are saying. I have done those steps before in other missions. As best as I can tell I was in SEQ1 throughout this mission. I say that because as I sat there I went to HSI, and then data (?) and then scrolled though WP1-7 doing nothing but hitting the up or down buttons. I was surprised that 4-7 already existed but saw they had no lat/lon but did have some type of grid. (I grid is something I am not up on at this time so I saw the #s, recognized what they are, but don't know any more than that). I didn't know if I could ad lat/lon at all but it worked fine. I also scrolled back through WPs checking that I had entered all the #s properly. The mission briefing gave the 6 digit lat/lon so that is what I used. I thought maybe that since the J-84 is a 1000# bomb, the creator figured that would be large enough to take out the scud launcher even if the bomb didn't hit directly. A related question if I can. I have run into several missions where the lat/lon is given in 6 digit form. I looked at the F10 map and it also gives just the 6 digits. Is there a way to get the more accurate info if it isn't given in the briefing? Something I can in F10 so it outputs a different format.

[Harker]

For the first part, the way DCS works, is that, if you have set WPs in the Mission Editor, then they'll be included in SEQ1 (up to the first 15 WPs). WPs that aren't set, aren't included in SEQ1.

WPs that aren't set in the Editor aren't empty, they have Lat/Long values of N0 E0, which has a Grid reference in Grid 31N AA, so the Grid part should indeed not be zero for unused WPs.

I think it's possible that you set up WPs 4-7 without having SEQ1 boxed and boxed it later, in order to navigate, thus losing access to WPs 4-7. It's a thing that anyone can do. I don't know of course, but this is my guess.

For the second part, if 6 digits is all you're given, then of course that's all you can use, no argument there. If you want to get better coordinates yourself via the F10 map, you can switch the coordinate type displayed by LAlt+Y, if I'm not mistaken. This will cycle between LL in DDMM.mmm and DDMMSS.ss formats, as well as MGRS, so you can pick the one you want to use.

[Phantom711]

@CBStu

 

Harker already gave valuable info here but it sounds to me like you are not really comfortable with the different coordinate formats. Don`t get that wrong please! I want to help.

So are you familiar with Lat/Long vs MGRS and how to use the non-precise and precise mode in the Hornet?

Also the mentioned different lat/long formats that Harker mentioned can get you into trouble. If you put a DDMMSS coordinate into the Hornet, when it actually asks for DDMM.MM the aircraft will "accept" that, but the coordinate will still be wrong...at least wrong enough for a JDAM to hit the target.

The term "6-digit" usually refers to MGRS, but you seem to refer to lat/lon?! So you mean your Lat has 6 digits and your Long has 6-digits? Either way...this is usually not precise enough for effective JDAM employment no matter how big the bang is. (BTW: J-84 is a 2000 lbs bomb)

 

JDAM employment:

Using Waypoint designate surely works, but it is a very poor-mans method of employing a JDAM. 

The way you want to accomplish the mission, you should use the Preplanned (PP) employment method instead. This means, you just punch the coordinates into the JDAM instead of programming them as waypoint. If the targets are relatively close together, you can then even release 4 bombs, one on each target, with just one pickle!

As mentioned, you would need more precise coordinates though.

 

Then again, from a tactical point of view, Preplanned delivery on a mobile(!) TBM launcher seems not very practical. I suggest taking a targeting pod with you, get somewhere near the target area with it, search for the Scuds and use TOO mode to engage.

 

I recommend "Chucks guide" to read some further on all the above, namely the Navigation and Offensive weapons chapter.

It is wrong though about one point: it states, that you can`t pickle multiple bombs on multiple targets in TOO mode, but you can do that just like in PP. 

 

I can elaborate further if you like...but that`s it for right now....

 

Have fun!!! 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Phantom711

[CBStu]

Harker thank you so much for your help. I don't know about your comments re; mission editer. This is mission in a user files campaign that I downloaded. I have not done mission editor work to it. I think you are correct about the extra WPs. Possibly the original creator set those 'empty' WPs to make it easier for us since we would not need to create new WPs. I think you are also correct in that I may have set WPs 4-7 w/o having SEQ1 boxed. That is usually one of the first things I do but since I was planning to enter data I may well have left SEQ1 unboxed. Thankyou for the way to change WP formatt in the F10 map. That will be very valuable.

Phantom 711 I am somewhat familiar w/ the different lat/lon and precise/non-precise formats but not w/ MGRS. When I say familiar, I can't always get things to work and often bring up Chucks Guide so I can pause DCS, check the guide, back to DCS,  etc. When I said '6 digit' I meant the most basic lat/lon format but I forgot that there are actually 2 of those. And, since I have not learned MGRS yet, I wasn't aware that '6 digit' would usually refer to it. For some reason I have never used the PP mode but your comment about 'punch the coordinates into the J-dam' has me interested and pickling all 4 bombs at once would also be great.  

To both of you, thank you very much for your help. I am going away this weekend so probably won't be able to get back to this mission until Monday. But I will print this thread so I can use your suggestions and also study up on this via Chucks Guide. I need to succeed on this mission so I can get all the way through the campaign. 

[Recluse]

If I understand, you had WP 1-3 from the Mission Editor and you wanted to add 4-7 from Coordinates you had?

Did you go to the HSI-->DATA page, and use the UFC to add a waypoint?  I usually use the HSI to move to a new WP which shows all zeros, and then hit UFC and enter the GRID or LAT LONG.  Then advance to the next WP and repeat.

This will give you the WPs that you can WPDESG for a TOO JDAM.

As @Phantom711 said, you can (if you have or have converted to DDMMSS.SS ) enter them directly into the JDAM for a PP mode. In this case you will NOT have Waypoints to follow, but when you select the JDAM, you will get steering and TMR cues to guide you in.  I much prefer the "POOR MAN's METHOD" using WPs because I can use GRIDS, and I can follow the WPS, Designate and fine tune the lock with my FLIR... To each their own.

[Phantom711]

@Recluse

Maybe you misunderstood: I actually even suggested „your“ method for a mobile target like a TBM launcher.

It is not like one method is better than the other…they both serve a different purpose.

PP for targets where you have the exact location and that are not likely or not able to move at all (i.e. buildings, large installations etc…).

 

TOO-mode for targets where the exact location is not known or that might have moved since they were last detected. You use a waypoint to get you in the target area and then use the TGT pod to actually generate the coordinate and hand it over to the JDAM.

The way CBStu intended it to do was basically just drop the bomb on the waypoints (each being the exact locations of a Scud) via TOO mode. At least that is how I understood it and called it „poor-man‘s“ method.

[Recluse]

 

@Phantom711

Apologies if I misconstrued anything. I was reacting to this line in your reply, but I get what you mean.  I find WP/TOO more versatile except if I do want to drop multiple bombs against different targets simultaneously (which you also did mention, so we still agree  )

In DCS anyway, if you put PRECISE coordinates in to make a WP on top of a known target, and use WP Designate to feed them to the TOO JDAM, the effect is just as good as PP, which is what I meant.

 

In both modes I sometimes struggle making sure I have the right Station selected for the right target, so Rich Man or Poor Man, *I* can still screw it up

Quote

 

JDAM employment:

Using Waypoint designate surely works, but it is a very poor-mans method of employing a JDAM. 

The way you want to accomplish the mission, you should use the Preplanned (PP) employment method instead. This means, you just punch the coordinates into the JDAM instead of programming them as waypoint. If the targets are relatively close together, you can then even release 4 bombs, one on each target, with just one pickle!

As mentioned, you would need more precise coordinates though.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Recluse

[CBStu]

Yesterday I got a couple hours to play so flew the mission a couple times w/ all the above suggestions and w/ Chucks guide open. Harker's LAlt-Y is a godsend so now I can get the precise coordinates. That worked great. I also did Phantom's recommendation of using PP mode vs TOO. I am not there yet though as the first bomb hit a launcher but the rest went somewhere else. I must say that entering the coordinates in PP is one step harder than TOO. You have to hit either lat or lon and then N or S and the digits. Not a big deal but weird that there is a different method to input the same data. Any way I am getting better but don't have it figures out completely yet. Recluse said, "In both modes I sometimes struggle making sure I have the right Station selected for the right target, so Rich Man or Poor Man, *I* can still screw it up" 

I think that is where I messed up. So more flights needed.

[Recluse]

Here's another tip that helped me out. LALT-Y on steroids!  Especially helpful for VR, but all around useful.  I refer of course to the SCRATCHPAD mod:

 

https://github.com/rkusa/dcs-scratchpad

 

Here's a YOUTUBE VIDEO.

Really easy to grab coordinates in 2 different systems including JDAM friendly and GRID for map locations. Obviates the need to transcribe them from the map.

 

Here's another tip that I found useful for TOO attacks to give yourself a double check that the FLIR coordinates and the JDAM coordinates are the same:

HSI-->DATA--> Click PRECISE (will get you the 10 digit Grids and the expanded LATLONG)

By Default, PRECISE LATLONG is in DDMM.mmmm, so to switch to DD.MM.SS.ss, go to the  HSI-->DATA-->AC tab use PB15 to switch coordinate systems from DCML to SEC and now you will have a unified coordinate system of DD.MM.SS.ss  for your Waypoints, JDAM and FLIR readouts.

As I was playing with this, I realized a simple way to make sure I had the correct station selected. I used to just leave it alone and use the STEP command to get to the "right" station.  For a SINGLE drop,  I now go to QTY and just select the station I know has the PP coordinates I want.  If I am dropping multiple PP JDAMS at once, then I will select all the stations dropping with one pickle.  For TOO, I drop one at a time and if I have programmed multiple stations for dropping multiple JDAM in rapid sequence, then I DO have to pay attention to the Selected Station as they cycle or STEP through the stations.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Recluse

[CBStu]

Recluse that scratchpad will be a huge help. I have been going to the F10 map, putting the curser on the target, and taking a cell phone pic of the coordinates that shows in the left lower corner of the screen. Then back to the cockpit to enter them off the cell pic. A real pain.   

[Phantom711]

@CBStu

 

Here is a nice vid of how to drop multiple (up to 4) JDAMS in with one pickle or even 8 (with 2x pickle) when you cycle through TOO 1/TOO2 quickly enough.

 

 

I am not sure about "not pressing TDC" as he mentioned, haven`t tried recently, but otherwise this is how it goes and I would say the "key takeaway" is actually to UNDESIGNATE after assigning the last target.

 

@Recluse

 

That scratchpad...I had stumbled over it in the past as well, but it didn`t work. The thread, where it was advertised is a bit of a mess and I lost track, what I would need to download. So does it really work now in VR also?

[Recluse]

@Phantom711

 

The Scratchpad works GREAT in VR... The original scratchpad had a little keyboard for use in VR, but that is not needed any more for pure COORDINATE scraping off the map.

The only thing I have to do that breaks my VR use is use the Scratchpad  keyboard shortcut to get the Scratchpad up and make it go away because I keep forgetting to start JOYSTICK GREMLIN and vJoy to pass the key stroke from a HOTAS button. (My WInWIng SIMAPPPRO doesn't allow direct mapping of keystrokes)

Very easy to setup.

 

Also, that is a great video, but it is a little out of date. The way JDAMS work has changed several times over the course of the evolution.

- Originally, the coordinates would pass to a TOO JDAM whenever the FLIR was active. As you moved the FLIR, you could see coordinates changing.  NOW you must hit TDC depress to pass the coordinates.

- Earlier, if you didn't hit UNDESIGNATE when moving to an already programed station, the new Coordinates would overwrite the old ones.

This is not needed any longer. Until you do a TDC DEPRESS, or a WPDESG when on a station, the coordinates programmed will persist.

 

You can now:

Select a TOO Station.  Designate a target.   Select another station.. Designate a target  etc..

When done, you can select the station you want to drop from and there is no need to UNDESIGNATE.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Recluse

[Phantom711]

Ok...sorry for posting outdated info then...the basic principle still applies though, with the changes that you mentioned.

[Recluse]

Just now, Phantom711 said:

Ok...sorry for posting outdated info then...the basic principle still applies though, with the changes that you mentioned.

No apology necessary. This stuff changes all the time. AND YES, I agree that otherwise it was a great video.  I was just trying to track down WHEN the last change happened, because I found some videos that were 6 months old that I thought were CURRENT, but then I read comments in them to the effect that things were about to change again.

I cannot tell you how frustrated a bunch of my friends have been trying to learn all kinds of stuff from Videos, only to find that it had totally changed. It is a little crazy that, in order to keep up to date you have to not only look for the LATEST YouTube Videos, but you have to constantly patrol the Forums to figure out what is going on.  For this reason, I USED to only fly with the  STABLE BUILD, but then I ended up living with BAD BUGS for a long time and never saw the new stuff, so I turned to the Open Beta and never looked back.

It looks like the current iteration happened on the 28-April-2022 OB release or JUST about 6 months ago

DCS: F/A-18C Hornet by Eagle Dynamics

 

• Fixed:JDAM TOO - TOO will now be saved when stepping stations and TOO ½.

 

More recently, there was a fix to the way QTY worked:

 

18-May-2022:

Fixed: JDAM TOO / PP behaviour when using QTY.

Not sure what this change was, but I know that for PP you can now select the Stations under the QTY section and I don't believe you can adjust the QTY at all for TOO, though you can program multiple stations, you drop one at a time (which was done in that Video, though I THINK at the time TOO allowed a QTY to be set)

[Phantom711]

I just tried and you can pickle multiple JDAMs in TOO just like in PP with by selecting the stations to drop via the QTY button.

 

(and yes: I am on OpenBeta as well)

Edited October 17, 2022 by Phantom711

[Recluse]

9 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

I just tried and you can pickle multiple JDAMs in TOO just like in PP with by selecting the stations to drop via the QTY button.

Thanks for checking me on this. I meant to go back and check on that but I kept forgetting. That's useful to keep track of which stations are needed for which targets.

I really like this Video on PP JDAMS (and I think it is up to date, at least it all worked for me as stated)

He has a companion video on TOO, but I think it is JUST out of date having been made before they restored the ability to program multiple TOO without overwrites.  The Markpoint method shown is still viable, though.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Recluse

[Phantom711]

Am 16.10.2022 um 15:26 schrieb CBStu:

I must say that entering the coordinates in PP is one step harder than TOO. You have to hit either lat or lon and then N or S and the digits.

Well....in most cases all those coordinates would have been programmed on the ground on some computer and then burnt onto a cartridge that the pilot then plugs into his aircraft. But you can simply still take your time and programm it while you`re still in the chocks.

Another case might be, that you get a target coordinate from a JTAC. Now...sure you could as well just program that as a new waypoint and take it from there with TOO. 

"Many ways to skin the cat" 

(Also a JTAC will rarely have a coordinate of that precision and getting it in Lat/Long instead of MGRS is a pain in the butt for him.)

Am 16.10.2022 um 15:26 schrieb CBStu:

Not a big deal but weird that there is a different method to input the same data.

First of all I would say that programming a target coordinate into a JDAM is the most straight forward way that a JDAM works and were it originated from. Everything else is probably more of an additional feature that came up later. I understand that you find TOO more intuitive though.

There are scenarios, where the higher command wants you just to drop a bomb on a certain coordinate and not search for a target or "fine tune" that impact point with your TGP. Think less of tanks and scud launchers, but of more strategic targets like a power plant, a bridge, a radio relay station etc...

Let`s stick to the power plant as an example: Maybe we don`t want to flatten that whole power plant, because this has huge implications on the civilian life as well and will last long into the post-war time. So instead someone has mensurated the target coordinate for the little generator house in the southwestern corner of the power plant. Now they also don`t want TV coverage of the orphans home next to the power plant  getting damaged by your attack, so you are even ordered a certain impact angle/azimuth and fuze setting in order to avoid such collateral damage. 

Now there`s also an enemy layered air defense system covering the target area. So you plan a track, that keeps you reasonably clear of those systems but gets you inside LAR to drop your JDAM. Now the waypoint you are navigating to while emplying your ordnance is not in close vicinity to the target area anymore (as you might be used to), but somewhat offset. This is part of the beauty of JDAMs!

See where I`m getting at?

Edited October 18, 2022 by Phantom711

[Recluse]

Agreed that the Data Cartridge is a big thing we are missing, but I am sure once they implement it, there will be lots of complaints about not being able to change things in flight (including LASER CODES on weapons).

In the Harrier and the A-10C, there is a CAS system by which the JTAC can automatically send the coordinates to the aircraft, so no data entry required!  I imagine in "REAL LIFE" the JTAC/AFAC needs some specialized equipment/radio for this, but maybe on the Modern Battlefield this is standard compared to the old days where maps, talk and smoke were the only options.

I think there are some current MODS that try to emulate the DATA CARTRIDGE for WP imports. Kind of works like Scratchpad but goes one step further and creates the WP too.

Here is one (I downloaded it but haven't tried it. It uses the PRECISE setting, with coordinates DDMM.mmmm, so it it should be good for TOO targeting. Once the WP's are placed, you can swap over to the DD.MM.SS.ss system.

https://github.com/aronCiucu/DCSTheWay

 

There was another one somewhere that I remember which used a Web Site to load WP's and coordinates, but I cannot find it at the moment.

 

EDIT: THE WAY doesn't seem to work in VR. That is probably why I abandoned it. Works well in PANCAKE mode..

EDIT2: I cannot even make it work reliably in PANCAKE mode.  Worked once, but not since. 

EDIT3: It seems to be a function of FRAME RATE. At very high frame rates, THE WAY doesn't work well.  Oddly enough, since the FRAME RATES are drastically lower in VR, I can get it to work in VR, but I have to raise the helmet and do the operation on the Screen  since THE WAY interface is not visible in VR.   Pretty klunky ScratchPad method may be better for VR after all until someone can come up with a WAY in VR.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Recluse

[CBStu]

Guys your info is excellent. I flew the mission that started this thread again. One problem w/ it is that it is something like 150nm away so I fly to it at 4x fast forward. I have a couple of old simple missions I created and am going to go back and make another version to simplify everything and cut flight time. I got a version done where I start out parked just off the runway. This way I can sit there and set up all the bombs etc w/o having other planes etc moving and I am not holding up anyone. Thanks again.

[CBStu]

I have been flying some simple missions to try to get this down. Prior to flying the mission that started this thread I have mostly been using TOO and the ATFLR which is easy to do when the target is easily visible. And it has the advantage over the old flir in that it has a TV mode which is much clearer in some situations. But I am starting to like PP much more now. Being able to change the coordinate format in the F10 map is a godsend. Dropping 4 bombs w/ one pickle is really nice but I will keep practicing because I need to be able to do one at a time for when they are not close together. Thanks to all of you who have helped in this thread.

[Recluse]

19 minutes ago, CBStu said:

I have been flying some simple missions to try to get this down. Prior to flying the mission that started this thread I have mostly been using TOO and the ATFLR which is easy to do when the target is easily visible. And it has the advantage over the old flir in that it has a TV mode which is much clearer in some situations. But I am starting to like PP much more now. Being able to change the coordinate format in the F10 map is a godsend. Dropping 4 bombs w/ one pickle is really nice but I will keep practicing because I need to be able to do one at a time for when they are not close together. Thanks to all of you who have helped in this thread.

The Litening Pod ("old FLIR") also has a TV mode, but it is called "CCD".  I typically prefer the LITENING pod use and symbology, so I have not compared "TV" modes between the two. 

[pete_auau]

On 10/18/2022 at 2:26 AM, Recluse said:

he only thing I have to do that breaks my VR use is use the Scratchpad  keyboard shortcut to get the Scratchpad up and make it go away because I keep forgetting to start JOYSTICK GREMLIN and vJoy to pass the key stroke from a HOTAS button. (My WInWIng SIMAPPPRO doesn't allow direct mapping of keystrokes)

i  use  voice attack works  wonder  in vr