britgliderpilot Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 (Crossposted from Ubi) One of my missions is a BVR joust between two Su27's (including me) and a pair of F15's, starting at 8000m. Standard F-Pole stuff I can probably do with my eyes closed by now . . . . but one thing is bothering me at the moment. If I climb too high trying to get a nice long range for my R27ER, then the radar lock breaks and I can't get it back again until I'm a couple of km closer . . . . I'm pretty sure it's the height that's causing the problem. Seems the highest I can go while maintaining long-range lock is about 8500m - if I go above 9000m, then the lock abruptly drops, and I don't know why. Any suggestions? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
ZoomBoy27 Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 And this includes scanning the radar up and down with the SHIFT-COLON and SHIFT-PERIOD keys? ZoomBoy My Flight Sims Page - Link to My Blog - Sims and Things - DCS Stuff++ - Up-to-Speed Guides to the old Lockon A10A and Su-25T - Some missions [needs update]
britgliderpilot Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 And this includes scanning the radar up and down with the SHIFT-COLON and SHIFT-PERIOD keys? I can still see the bandit - the line is there on the HUD and the icon is in the MFD. I just can't lock it . . . . like I'm in detection range, but still not within lock range. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Octav Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 And this includes scanning the radar up and down with the SHIFT-COLON and SHIFT-PERIOD keys? I can still see the bandit - the line is there on the HUD and the icon is in the MFD. I just can't lock it . . . . like I'm in detection range, but still not within lock range. I've also encountered this problem - and I think it's a bug, normally, if you see the target, and you are within locking distance, you should be able to acieve a lock. Octav
Nate--IRL-- Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Ground Clutter at work? Nate Ka-50 AutoPilot/stabilisation system description and operation by IvanK- Essential Reading
coldcrew Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 And this includes scanning the radar up and down with the SHIFT-COLON and SHIFT-PERIOD keys? I can still see the bandit - the line is there on the HUD and the icon is in the MFD. I just can't lock it . . . . like I'm in detection range, but still not within lock range. if you can't lock it usually means the target is jamming
169th_Cobra Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 what happens if you drop back down to 8500m or so? can you then re-lock it up?
britgliderpilot Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 what happens if you drop back down to 8500m or so? can you then re-lock it up? No conclusive evidence, since in the time it takes me to descend to 8500m I get that much closer. However, if I remain at 8500m then the lock never drops . . . . . The ground clutter argument is an interesting one - but I'm probably no more than 1000m above the bandit at a range of 60km, bandit altitude 8000m. I don't think the angle is enough to bring in any serious ground clutter . . . . . is that right? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Brit_Radar_Dude Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Ground clutter ought not to be an issue in the situation you described IMHO. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Sorry Death, you lose! It was Professor Plum....
Octav Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Ground Clutter at work? Nate No way.... It would prevent you seeing the target in the first place - the clutter presents much more problems in search mode than in lock mode. Octav
GGTharos Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Yeah, it's just a bug. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Tracker Posted April 6, 2005 Posted April 6, 2005 you may have answered the question with your own comments. "in the time it takes me to descend to 8500m I get that much closer" As you climb in altitude you 1.) Increase incident angle 2.)Increase distance from target. This combo could be sufficient to lose lock. "no more than 1000m above the bandit at a range of 60km" 60km is outside ECM burn through range. You may be seeing coincident effect where your opponet turns on jamming a short time after you have locked them. In multiplayer there is a definate delay from the time a lock is removed and the time the warning reciever stops the "locked" alert. This may also be true in reverse causing a 5 to 10 second delay in opponent ECM response to your locking them. Additionally, the selected weapon may play a part in this. Try the Su-33 with 27EM and see if the problem goes away. If it does, then distance is the issue. If it is still there, check that you are not exceeding any AOA limits. Also, make sure that your Equipment hasn't changed modes from Radar to EOS automatically. It will do this if it loses lock and you will especially have the EOS dots if the enemy is retreating in AB, but now its out of parameter* so you cannot get a lock. And lastly, has the enemy began dropping chaff and evasive manuevres? If so, it will be very difficult to reaquire a lock until you have closed the distance considerably (60km down to about 40km) as you will keep locking chaff instead, and then it will disapear and you'll keep losing lock. *in this situation the enemy is leading you and the closure rate has been reduced or nullified requiring you to close the gap before a lock can be established. :cool: When all else fails, Eject then read the manual. Oh, and a good wingman helps.
Bug11 Posted April 6, 2005 Posted April 6, 2005 Yeah, it's just a bug. 'just' a bug? is this bug fixed in FC?
bflagg Posted April 6, 2005 Posted April 6, 2005 I just turn off / on the radar (it does it in the f15 from time to time as well) Thanks, Brett
gherring Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 you may have answered the question with your own comments. "in the time it takes me to descend to 8500m I get that much closer" As you climb in altitude you 1.) Increase incident angle 2.)Increase distance from target. This combo could be sufficient to lose lock. I have good reason to beleive BritGliderPilot did not climb at a pitch of more than 30 degrees, so at least 86% of his TAS would go towards closing the horizontal separation between the planes. In addition, his target was almost certainly flying towards him. No way could the separation be increasing. "no more than 1000m above the bandit at a range of 60km" 60km is outside ECM burn through range. You may be seeing coincident effect where your opponet turns on jamming a short time after you have locked them. In multiplayer there is a definate delay from the time a lock is removed and the time the warning reciever stops the "locked" alert. This may also be true in reverse causing a 5 to 10 second delay in opponent ECM response to your locking them. So why does he do better with lock if he doesn't cliimb?
Tracker Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 Would have to see it in action actually. I have experienced these results at all altitudes and likewise have successfully locked the enemy at 12,000+ meters. I doubt there is a vapor refraction in the model so that wouldn't explain it. So either the aspect is sufficient to degrade the returned signal, doppler stops shifting or counter measures begin working. Or its just a bug. I know the radar doesn't really work properly in the F15 when first turned on until you reach ~5000 feet or about 2500 meters for the russian jets. So, altitude does play some part in the model. So many pilots have successfully locked the enemy from altitudes above 8500 meters that I thought I would offer alternative explanations. ;) Hmmm, does it do this in single player as welll....? :cool: When all else fails, Eject then read the manual. Oh, and a good wingman helps.
britgliderpilot Posted April 7, 2005 Author Posted April 7, 2005 Would have to see it in action actually. I have experienced these results at all altitudes and likewise have successfully locked the enemy at 12,000+ meters. I doubt there is a vapor refraction in the model so that wouldn't explain it. So either the aspect is sufficient to degrade the returned signal, doppler stops shifting or counter measures begin working. Or its just a bug. I know the radar doesn't really work properly in the F15 when first turned on until you reach ~5000 feet or about 2500 meters for the russian jets. So, altitude does play some part in the model. So many pilots have successfully locked the enemy from altitudes above 8500 meters that I thought I would offer alternative explanations. ;) Hmmm, does it do this in single player as welll....? :cool: It's one of my standard missions in single player, against an AI target, starting at 8000m. If I remain below 8500m, I can lock and keep the lock. If I lock and then climb above about 8500m, the lock drops . . . . . and then I can regain it when I get closer. It's not a doppler notch effect, and I'm very doubtful that it's an ECM effect. I'm very sure the system hasn't switched from radar to EOS, and I seriously doubt that the AI is dropping chaff at 60km . . . . . I'll take the "bug" explanation for the moment - nothing else fits. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
GGTharos Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 Could be 'ground clutter' ... might be simulate wiht 'altitude difference' instead of altitude combined with incident angle. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Bug11 Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 I thought you said it was a bug? Either way, ground clutter should not be affecting the Eagle's radar. I'd like to see some info that says it should.
Bug11 Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 and I'm very doubtful that it's an ECM effect. If it was you'd have the Jam Lines on your scope...
Tracker Posted April 7, 2005 Posted April 7, 2005 He's flying an Su-27, so Jam Strobes are out. " Ground/Background Clutter" is basically any radar reflective object that isn't moving with respect to the 'Ground' along the longitudinal axis of the scan volume. A hovering chopper will completely 'blend' in with the background noise which the Radar System will ignore. A beaming A/C exploits this radar weakness during a 'notch' manuevre by flying the lateral Axis but remaining 'stationary' with respect to the longitudinal axis. This is why a locked target will disappear from the scope when turning 180 and then reappear after the turn is near completion. Have a buddy fly loose 360's and see how well you can maintain lock while approaching ;-) I would like to fly this mission and see first hand what your seeing =) :cool: When all else fails, Eject then read the manual. Oh, and a good wingman helps.
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