Best way to change heading

[the_soupdragon]

right In a fixed wing it is reasonably easy to do co-ordinated turns, but I find doing them in BS to be very hard.

I fly with the AP helpers on, but, when I want to change heading I seem to be battling the AP I kick in a bit of rudder and I am fishtailing all over the sky, I use just the bank and turn but it just doesn't feel right 'cos I seem to be fighting the AP.

SO....

What is the best/most efficient way to change course with the least amount of fighting/fishtailing involved?

Should I use my rudders to co-ordinate the turn or just yank and bank

 

I would love to know the secret :)

 

SD

[beers]

not an authority here, but someone wrote in another thread that except for very slow speed, they don't use the rudder at all, just bank. Tried it out and turns are a lot better. Rudder is really to spin you around a point, much different than when used with coordinated turns in fixed wing.

 

Far as I can tell, the only thing that's the same about fixed wing and roto is they both get you up in the air. after that, it's apples & oranges.

 

The AP ... yea, the commander set your flight path and a good Russian soldier would follow the path exactly, right? Seems generally you are supposed to do what the AP tells you, unless you turn it off. I have all 4 AP buttons programmed to my HOTAS, when I am turning I turn off heading AP, when I'm pointed where I want to be, turn it back on...

[slug88]

I believe the SOP is to leave the three main AP channels on at all times. This has nothing to do with tactical rigidity and/or adherence to the preplanned flight plan, rather the AP is there to assist the pilot in dealing with his significant workload.

 

Personally, I find that the best method to make smooth, coordinated turns is to hold down the trimmer until you've reached the new desired heading. This way, you won't be fighting the AP stabilizers throughout the turn, while retaining their damping function.

[the_soupdragon]

OK cheers guys.

So the rudder should be left alone, as I thought, Even though it seems to be very effective even at high speeds? I was under the impression that rudder authority diminished the higher the speed, is this correct? Or have I got it completely wrong.

 

SD

[spybaz]

beers: "when I am turning I turn off heading AP, when I'm pointed where I want to be, turn it back on"

 

- that is the secret as far as concerns my flying and changing direction/heading. Rudder is very usable on the Ka50 but just remember - no rear rotor!

[Frederf]

OK cheers guys.

So the rudder should be left alone, as I thought, Even though it seems to be very effective even at high speeds? I was under the impression that rudder authority diminished the higher the speed, is this correct? Or have I got it completely wrong.

 

SD

 

As airspeed increases the air flow over the body will have a weather vane tendency so yaw authority is reduced. (Rudder authority is the pilot's ability to move the rudder, difference).

 

You shouldn't ignore the rudder input ever but you also shouldn't rely on it as the primary method of turning either. What happens when you are flying along fast, straight, and level and bank? You start to fly sideways as well as forward. To make a coordinated turn you should bank and then apply rudder input to keep the ball in the turn coordinator centered. The combination of bank and yaw input is how a normal coordinated turn is achieved.

[JDski]

I've been putting it into flight director mode and leaving all the other AP channels on when ever I do any manuvering or large changes in direction.

When changing direction I switch to flight director mode, go to my new heading, set trim, then turn off flight director and set trim again.

It hasn't been fighting me and trying to turn back to the last heading when using flight director to change headings. I hit trim the second time after turning off flight director mostly for a finer setting.

I believe I read this is the more realistic way as opposed to turning off the heading ap channel. The only one i turn off and on now is the alt hold.

[mckee14]

the 3 AP channels should remain on ALWAYS, no matter what...

 

so just hold down the trim for heading changes, this way the AP does not try to hold the "old" heading and it works like a dream.

 

sure, you can activate the flight director mode, but this way you kill all the AP "helping", have more buttons to click, and you have to trim more - a lot more workload, just for making a turn...

 

so just hold down the trim button, make the turn, wait until the bird is stabilised, release trim.

[Skypat]

the best way to change heading is:

 

1- going to the new heading

2- stabilize the ka-50

4- press 'T'rim and release instant

 

like mckee said, to fly like real ka-50 pilot

- PITCH/BANK/HEAD HOLD must be always on

 

and if you need to do aerien show, put the FD (flight director) button on

[LupinYonder]

the best way to change heading is:

 

1- going to the new heading

2- stabilize the ka-50

4- press 'T'rim and release instant

 

like mckee said, to fly like real ka-50 pilot

- PITCH/BANK/HEAD HOLD must be always on

 

and if you need to do aerien show, put the FD (flight director) button on

 

This is how i do my turns ( in terms of trimming ) the AP does fight you a little trying to keep you on previosly trimmed heading but that goes once you trim to your new heading.

 

I have seen a few people suggesting that the trim button be held down during a medium/high speed turn and released on the new heading, i personally just tap once on the new heading and balenced.

 

I have seen many threads now concerning coordinated turns, turns without rudder, and trim usage in a turn and i think it would be very helpful to get official word as a sticky turning guide :joystick:

[mckee14]

both works, but i prefer to hold the trim button down the entire time.

 

pro/con:

+ no oversteering of the actual set heading, turns better/smoother

- you have to hold that button down the whole time, so depending on your joystick and profile this is not very helpful at all and maybe make things more complicated

 

by oversteering and only pressing the trim button once:

+ no need to hold that button down, more "precise" stick control possible

- when reaching the new heading, chances are that you still have some rudder and/or bank on your pedals/stick. when pressing the trim button, the values of the axis input are set, and it's really easy to screw up the "flight profile"... the shark starts to dance, wobble, whatever

 

when only tapping the trim button, it's just really important to be aware of that fact, and to center the pedals before tapping. everytime. always. no excuse :)

 

holding down the button while doing changes got second nature really fast, and since then i have eliminated 90% of my WTF-moments when flying the shark.

[LupinYonder]

Interesting, thank you for breaking down pro's and con's :thumbup:

 

both works, but i prefer to hold the trim button down the entire time.

 

when only tapping the trim button, it's just really important to be aware of that fact, and to center the pedals before tapping. everytime. always. no excuse :)

 

holding down the button while doing changes got second nature really fast, and since then i have eliminated 90% of my WTF-moments when flying the shark.

 

 

When i trim as i mentioned before, i often do a second trim to reset my rudder position to the center by using CTL+ENTER to check its trimmed position. This is does add an extra step to the trim process so im not sure of its efficiency but so far this is what i've been doing.

[einar-st]

the best way to change heading is:

 

1- going to the new heading

2- stabilize the ka-50

4- press 'T'rim and release instant

 

like mckee said, to fly like real ka-50 pilot

- PITCH/BANK/HEAD HOLD must be always on

 

and if you need to do aerien show, put the FD (flight director) button on

 

Changing heading like that with Heading Hold on will cause your rudder input to fight the aircraft's tendancy to turn to the old heading. So when you trim your the rudder trim won't be centered (or the same value as before the turn).

 

At the moment I disable heading hold before a turn and enable when I'm heading in the desired direction. This will automatically set the new heading to heading hold. If you're aiming to keep speed and pitch-setting there is no real need for immediate retrim either.

 

If anyone from ED or anyone else knows of a better or "more correct" way to change heading, I'm all ears.

[Chillspider]

Turn:lol::megalol::pilotfly:

[mckee14]

Changing heading like that with Heading Hold on will cause your rudder input to fight the aircraft's tendancy to turn to the old heading. So when you trim your the rudder trim won't be centered (or the same value as before the turn).

 

At the moment I disable heading hold before a turn and enable when I'm heading in the desired direction. This will automatically set the new heading to heading hold. If you're aiming to keep speed and pitch-setting there is no real need for immediate retrim either.

 

If anyone from ED or anyone else knows of a better or "more correct" way to change heading, I'm all ears.

 

that's why i hold down the trimbutton while turning. this way, the heading hold is not active, no AP try to fight you.

[JDski]

After reading some of this thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35444

 

It became clear that if you don't have a force feedback stick, you might be inclined to trim in a non conventional fashion.

With the real KA-50 or a with FFB stick, when you trim, it actually holds the stick in that physical position. But with non force feedback stick, they had to implement the workaround (The hit trim, return to center in .5 secs thing). That whole transition in the workaround, can make trimming seem a little funky. But what else could they do for those without a FFB stick?

I found out that holding down trim is a method to use, but in reality while holding down trim, it removes all the artificial feedback sent to the stick making it feel loose. Of course if you don't have a force feedback stick, you won't feel this.

Using Flight Director, turns off the the stabilization channels (ie pitch, bank, yaw etc.) but it still keeps some dampening effect on the stick.

I haven't actually read this, but I'm assuming there would be some artificial feedback sent to the stick with Flight Director mode.

So it seems either of these methods are going to be the best methods to trim or change direction with a non forcefeedback stick.

[Dvst]

The absolute correct and ( in my eyes ) most practical method is pressing and holding the trim button, changing flightpath / speed and then releasing the button.

As said before that way you don't have the AP interfere with what you're doing and it's way less complicated then changing AP modes.

I got it mapped to the pinky switch on the X-52, so it's easy to keep it pressed without loosing any other functionality.

 

FD is quite similar to keeping the trim button pressed permanently ( maybe identical - feels identical to me anyway ).

Good for attack runs and the like.

[LupinYonder]

I just re-watched the trim producers note and at the end of the vid he says that you should not really be holding down the trim button during heading change as far as i understood it.

 

I'll say again, the number of posts about turning is quite large and deff requires an official turning guide sticki ! plz :-)

 

Also if you aint read it allrdy check out the trimming sticki and trimming producer's note.

[sonic]

I found out that holding down trim is a method to use, but in reality while holding down trim, it removes all the artificial feedback sent to the stick making it feel loose. Of course if you don't have a force feedback stick, you won't feel this.

 

This sounds like a valid point for the hold trim button method for non ffb users.

 

However the heading hold AP is more about rudder pedals than stick.

I wonder if in the real KA 50 the pilot can feel (with his feets) the AP trying to re-orient to the last trimmed heading?

[bogusheadbox]

The correct way to turn the helo is a co-ordinated turn with rudder and cyclic.

 

I leave AP stabiliser modes on all the time, use correct rudder to center the ball whilst in turn. Exactly the same as in a fixed wing aircraft.

 

of course (as with real life) a turn can induce none to all of the following.

 

1. Loss / increase of speed.

2. Attitude change

3. Bank angle change

4. Vector change with regard to wind.

5. Engine power change.

 

Any one of these can induce a need for trim. Cock up a co-ordinated turn and you have screwed all 5 items which means a need for a lot of trim change.

 

Quite simple, a well co-ordinated turn should evoke small trim changes (depending on wind vector change of course).

 

EG for wind vector.

 

you have a head wind of 20 knots.

 

a 90 turn will see a marked reduction in airspeed (until you have stabilised again) and a large crosswing component.

 

I would recomment practicing a bit more with rudder in your turns and trimming.

[LIONPRIDE]

OK cheers guys.

So the rudder should be left alone, as I thought, Even though it seems to be very effective even at high speeds? I was under the impression that rudder authority diminished the higher the speed, is this correct? Or have I got it completely wrong.

 

SD

 

Your rudder controls are actually working as if you had a tail rotor. Don't think of the rudder controls moving the rudder plane so much as they manipulate one of the rotors (up top) to allow it's inherent torque to spin you in a desired direction. The pedals move the rudder plane in the back as an addition to those effects. Hope that helps

 

 

Please don't let this turn into another torque thread ! ! ! For the love of Pete

 

 

 

.

[Shaitaan]

that's why i hold down the trimbutton while turning. this way, the heading hold is not active, no AP try to fight you.

 

I tried this yesterday, but it seems that the heading AP is still working when I hold the trim button. I went into the turn while holding trim and the disabled the heading AP. After this the turning rate increased, indicating that the heading AP was still active.

 

I'm using a non FF stick by the way.

 

Any idea?

 

 

Shaitaan

[mckee14]

jup - holding down the trimbutton does deactivate the "heading hold", but still you have the dampeners working.

 

when deactivating the channel completely, the dampener is also turned off... depending on the situation you may turn faster, but things tend to get "shaky" then. try to do it when flying very slow and you see what i mean (the faster you fly, the more stabilising is done by the airflow along the helo)

 

you can make a test, while hovering around over a airport:

-> fly straight, go into hover, turn 180 degress, fly straight and turn another 180 degrees while holding some airspeed

1. with all the AP channels ON, and not holding down the trimbutton

2. with all the AP channels ON, but holding down the trimbutton

3. with FD-Mode ON, all AP channels ON, with and without holding the button

4. with all the AP channels OFF

 

you will soon find out how it feels different from one way to the other, and how the single parts of the "fly control" work together (or against each other)...

[Shaitaan]

Thats sound plausible. I will do some more testing.

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

PS: Very nice forum.