5800X3D - Heat fix for me

[Slammin]

So, I took the plunge and replaced my 5950x with the 5800X3D yesterday and the temps were insane, even after repasting 3 times.  I tried the bead of rice method, smaller bead in center with small beads at corners, and also the X pattern.  No difference, and temps would still shoot from 50c idle up to 90+ C while running cinebench r20 and only yield scores in the 5400 range. Lots of throttling between 4.2 - 4.3-ish.  I also built a new rig for my grandson at the same time, also with a 5800X3D and his idle is 35c and hits high 5700's - 5800+ running cinebench r20 and temps top out at 70c or less.  I get even better results with PBO2 -30 offsets.

The biggest difference between these rigs as far as cooling is concerned is that my rig uses an EK Elite 360 with push-pull fans and I installed a Thermaltake 240 in his rig.  Due to the layout and case constraints, I had to mount his CPU waterblock 180 degrees (upside down).  The logo is upside down.

I just flipped my waterblock upside as well and now I idle at 40c and hit 77c max while running cinebench and scores are 5700-ish with zero throttling.  Haven't tried any games yet but I am certain things improve there as well.  Again, even better when using PBO2 -30 offsets.

Next step is to figure a way to reduce the bend/stress on one of the radiator hoses because I am not comfortable with it the way it is.  Maybe even replace the AIO if I have to.  I hear there are waterblocks out there that are specific to AMD chip layout and I also suspect this is why rotating my waterblocks is making such a huge difference.

[tomcat_driver]

Yesterday while monitoring it, mine peaked at 89C under a Noctua U14S.

Reflecting on a possible upgrade, does anyone have it running with a Noctua D-15S?

 

[Dragon1-1]

I'm currently waiting for a fancy model of the Corsair H100i, after trying to run it under a H45 with similar result. It idles hot and runs hotter. I will certainly be keeping an eye on this. Funnily enough, I had to mount the H45 water block upside down, too.

[Biggus]

I had a hell of a time with my vanilla 5800X.

I had an ML240 that was fine.  It died.  The two AIOs I bought that were significantly more expensive to replace it were unable to keep it below 70 idling.  I pasted and repasted them multiple times but nothing seemed to help.  Bought another ML240 and once again, it's idling under 40 most of the time and I never hit thermal throttling.  I was never able to adequately explain why some coolers just didn't work when there were very few complaints about them.  Lots of hypotheses, no real answers.

[tomcat_driver]

The fact that you had it idling and still heating 70C does ring some bells. Mine on an, again, NH-U14S: a single tower, single fan cooler, running silently while idling and browsing, never goes above 55C.

What AIOs were they?

[5ephir0th]

14 hours ago, Slammin said:

.Next step is to figure a way to reduce the bend/stress on one of the radiator hoses because I am not comfortable with it the way it is.  Maybe even replace the AIO if I have to.  I hear there are waterblocks out there that are specific to AMD chip layout and I also suspect this is why rotating my waterblocks is making such a huge difference.

 

Why not just rotate the radiator so the hoses from it comes out at the back of the case and not at the front?

[EightyDuce]

Just be careful how you mount the radiators in relation to the pump/coldplate.

 

Technical explanation:

As much as I dislike this guy most of the time, this is a pretty good TLDR version:

 

[kksnowbear]

Not to get too far off the subject here, just responding to the post with the videos about liquid cooler mounting:

GNSteve and JayZ have both been wrong about plenty, and that's coming directly from someone with 40+ years of experience in computerized systems maintenance, formal training at the best US Navy school in Avionics (AVI-C7) and for actual Navy flight simulator maintenance (specifically, this includes liquid dynamics/hydraulics).

Neither the lines going to the radiator nor the pump head assembly should be the highest point in the system.

Not sure why the bottom picture would say "this is fine", because it's not.  The hoses should never be at the top of the radiator.

Arguably, there **might* be enough liquid at the top to submerge both lines inside and thus avoid air void binding...but I'd doubt it, and I wouldn't suggest it's worth taking the chance.

Edit: The stupid thing is that, often, the actual instructions for mounting these things are all kinds of wrong.  In most cases, they say to mount the unit so that outside air can be blown directly over the radiator.  This will (almost invariably) lead to air - heated by whatever the liquid system is cooling - being forced *in* to the chassis.  Last I checked, we want to remove heated air from the system, not introduce more.  While there's little doubt that, it's better to use cooler air to blow at a radiator, this ceases to be a good idea the moment it results in dumping hot air into the box we're trying to cool.

Edited January 17, 2023 by kksnowbear

[Dragon1-1]

Well, I'm putting my fans on top. Note that AIOs are typically pretty well filled at the start, and the amount that leaks out is not large. The lines are at not at the exact top, so it would take a lot of air to actually expose them. Sure, the best way to mount the radiator is at the top, and that's what I'm going to do, but if you're going to put it in front, you're usually gonna have to settle for having the lines at the top, and keeping the pump below.

[EightyDuce]

31 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Not to get too far off the subject here, just responding to the post with the videos about liquid cooler mounting:

GNSteve and JayZ have both been wrong about plenty, and that's coming directly from someone with 40+ years of experience in computerized systems maintenance, formal training at the best US Navy school in Avionics (AVI-C7) and for actual Navy flight simulator maintenance (specifically, this includes liquid dynamics/hydraulics).

Neither the lines going to the radiator nor the pump head assembly should be the highest point in the system.

Not sure why the bottom picture would say "this is fine", because it's not.  The hoses should never be at the top of the radiator.

Arguably, there **might* be enough liquid at the top to submerge both lines inside and thus avoid air void binding...but I'd doubt it, and I wouldn't suggest it's worth taking the chance.

Edit: The stupid thing is that, often, the actual instructions for mounting these things are all kinds of wrong.  In most cases, they say to mount the unit so that outside air can be blown directly over the radiator.  This will (almost invariably) lead to air - heated by whatever the liquid system is cooling - being forced *in* to the chassis.  Last I checked, we want to remove heated air from the system, not introduce more.  While there's little doubt that, it's better to use cooler air to blow at a radiator, this ceases to be a good idea the moment it results in dumping hot air into the box we're trying to cool.

 

You would likely know better than me. Just passing along information as I don't have the time, background, tools to do the testing to corroborate or disprove their findings.

[kksnowbear]

30 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, I'm putting my fans on top. Note that AIOs are typically pretty well filled at the start, and the amount that leaks out is not large. The lines are at not at the exact top, so it would take a lot of air to actually expose them. Sure, the best way to mount the radiator is at the top, and that's what I'm going to do, but if you're going to put it in front, you're usually gonna have to settle for having the lines at the top, and keeping the pump below.

Putting the radiator at the front will almost certainly mean exhausting hot air into the system, from the point which should be the primary intake for cool outside air.  Not smart.  Don't put it there, and preclude the problem.

Can you provide a reference for how the radiators are "typically pretty well filled" (something authoritative, like a link from a manufacturer)?

My comment has nothing to do with leakage.  Anything that heats will expand.  There has to be room for expansion, even in a sealed system.  And yes, there is some area left empty because of manufacturing as well.  As I said, the lines at the radiator *might* be submerged...I didn't say they are or are not, I said I wouldn't suggest that it's worth taking the chance.

Radiators belong up top or in the back, exhausting heated air out of the system.  Else you're defeating the purpose of (at least some part of) a cooling system.

For the record, my own system has a 240mm radiator that exhausts at the top of the chassis, while also getting outside air (documented 20c cooler in load conditions) as it's intake.  I'll leave it to the reader to figure that out, but that's how it is.

The point is that just because manufacturers of cases and AIO coolers are constrained by a number of factors as to how they suggest their products are used, doesn't prevent the system builder from doing a better job with design and execution.  One good step to start off with would be "Don't dump hot air back into the system." lol

Edited January 17, 2023 by kksnowbear

[5ephir0th]

59 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Neither the lines going to the radiator nor the pump head assembly should be the highest point in the system.

I woult love to know how do you install an AIO without letting the lines or pump on top, if you install the radiator at the botton, your pump and lines are on thop, on the front with the exit of the lines on top, same problem, on top the lines are above the pump, the only one i think is the radiator on front and the exit of the lines at the bottom but the problem is you are getting hot air into the case and on most of the cases the lines are too short to that kind of installation.

Im asking without any kind of irony, seriously.

[unlikely_spider]

I just installed a Lian Li Galahad 240mm for my 5800x3D and temps improved substantially over my air cooling. Radiator is at the top of the case.

Idles at like 32 degrees.

[kksnowbear]

49 minutes ago, 5ephir0th said:

I woult love to know how do you install an AIO without letting the lines or pump on top, if you install the radiator at the botton, your pump and lines are on thop, on the front with the exit of the lines on top, same problem, on top the lines are above the pump, the only one i think is the radiator on front and the exit of the lines at the bottom but the problem is you are getting hot air into the case and on most of the cases the lines are too short to that kind of installation.

Im asking without any kind of irony, seriously.

First of all, don't put a radiator on the front of the chassis.  This avoids both the problem of where the lines go into the rad at, and heat being exhausted into the system.

As for the bottom - I'm not sure if I understand correctly.  You mean mounting the radiator at the bottom of the chassis (flat, horizontally) with intake through the bottom of the chassis itself?  If so, it means that while you are getting cooler air directed at the rad, you're also still exhausting hot air into the system.

Again - and this is my opinion but it's based on sound fact and physics, combined with decades of experience and formal training - radiators belong at the top or rear of a case.

EDIT: I just re-read the part where you said "on top the lines are above the pump"...kindly note I'm not saying the *lines* cannot be above the pump.  I'm saying the point at which the lines connect to the rad should never be at the top of the (AIO) system.  If you mount the rad at the top of the case (horizontally with respect to the orientation of a 'normal' desktop tower case), then the lines enter at the bottom of the rad - meaning there's more than enough liquid above that point to ensure the lines are always submerged.  Any air void in the rad will naturally occupy the uppermost level of the rad itself, thus not affecting liquid pumping at all.

Edited January 17, 2023 by kksnowbear

[tomcat_driver]

28 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

I just installed a Lian Li Galahad 240mm for my 5800x3D and temps improved substantially over my air cooling. Radiator is at the top of the case.

Idles at like 32 degrees.

What was your previous air cooler?

[unlikely_spider]

20 minutes ago, tomcat_driver said:

What was your previous air cooler?

It was a deepcool gammaxx gt.

[5ephir0th]

42 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

First of all, don't put a radiator on the front of the chassis.  This avoids both the problem of where the lines go into the rad at, and heat being exhausted into the system.

As for the bottom - I'm not sure if I understand correctly.  You mean mounting the radiator at the bottom of the chassis (flat, horizontally) with intake through the bottom of the chassis itself?  If so, it means that while you are getting cooler air directed at the rad, you're also still exhausting hot air into the system.

Again - and this is my opinion but it's based on sound fact and physics, combined with decades of experience and formal training - radiators belong at the top or rear of a case.

Im just asking in which way do you install an AIO without placing the lines or pump on top, as the only way i think is placing the radiator on front with the lines exhaust at the bottom, but that config dont work on the most of cases as lines are too short and you have the cons of getting hot air inside the case

[kksnowbear]

Please see my edit, concerning top mount.  The radiator *can* be mounted on top; I haven't said it shouldn't be.  Sorry if this wasn't clear.

EDIT: I just re-read the part where you said "on top the lines are above the pump"...kindly note I'm not saying the *lines* cannot be above the pump.  I'm saying the point at which the lines connect to the rad should never be at the top of the (AIO) system.  If you mount the rad at the top of the case (horizontally with respect to the orientation of a 'normal' desktop tower case), then the lines enter at the bottom of the rad - meaning there's more than enough liquid above that point to ensure the lines are always submerged.  Any air void in the rad will naturally occupy the uppermost level of the rad itself, thus not affecting liquid pumping at all.

[Slammin]

As for this radiator discussion, kksnowbear is correct on theory, but in practice, it's not always easy to achieve when dealing with more than one radiator in a given PC case, thus presenting a conflict or challenge if a goal is to have positive or equal air pressure within the case, while at the same time having both radiators as case exhausts, that get their air intake from a source outside the case.  Duct work?!? 

At the end of the day, many have tested actual impact of a front rad acting as an intake and the general consensus is that although not optimal, the actual real-world impact on overall system performance is negligible, although measurable from a temperature perspective. For a top mounted radiator, thermal dynamics would indicate a conflict if you made that rad an intake.  I've heard of folks doing it, but again, you would be feeding hot air into the case ordinarily, although I have seen a case that was built to exhaust this air through a special channel back to the outside of the case.  I can't remember who makes it.

I think in whatever situation, as long as the pump is lower than the radiator fittings, the risk of dry-pump is extremely minimal, unless the radiator fluid level is so low that it is barely effective in any heat dissipation.  Dry pump, or no way to dispel air bubbles is a great way to cripple a loop and kill a pump.

Back to my situation, it sure feels to me like there are some trade-offs going from 5950 to 5800X3D.  I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.  With the 5950, I could set all settings in fs2020 to ultra and LOD to 400 on flatscreen and although I wouldn't actually use those settings, they at least ran.  With the 5800X3D, those settings absolutely murder the CPU although once I set things to playable settings, it is more smoother than I have ever had.  For playability I have to set LOD much lower for the 5800x3d for fs2020.  I'm starting to look at DCS now too but initial impression is that I will likely put the 5950 back in.  Maybe I am having other issues but it seems like my GPU frametime has increased although CPU frametime shows a very nice reduction.  This forces me to run at lower res in VR and that is not something I want to do.  For all my racing sims and also for Star Wars, the 5800X3D provides a much smoother experience with no compromise anywhere.

More testing....

[kksnowbear]

Actually it wasn't difficult or even expensive to do in my situation, and in fact I could *very* easily add a second radiator, both exhausting air (in fact I'm considering it).  All while maintaining positive pressure, because that's also (in my book) a "near-imperative".  And again, my current radiator both exhausts heated air and draws cooler, outside air.  Just had to figure out how to set it up, way back in the planning stages of the build (which is unfortunately where the real failure is, most of the time).

Part of the problem is people just accepting that it's too difficult or not worth it.  They spend tons of money liquid cooling this and that, but then shrug at the notion of re-introducing the very heat they're spending time, money, and effort to deal with.  They also fail to think through things, rush, and make mistakes.  They heave money at the biggest, most expensive stuff available, even though that doesn't mean getting the best solution...

How many people here actually have two radiators anyway?  (And if they had that kind of resources, then they *really* should have no problem making sure it's done optimally).

To be clear, "theory" in my case is practiced.  I do 15-20 builds a year, in addition to friends and family, and have performed or overseen hundreds (maybe *thousands*) of PC builds over my career.  This is not just theory.

Far as testing goes, I don't know what data you're referring to, but I'd bet money there was a bit of a foregone conclusion in play, at least in some measure.  The old "Well, we can't figure out how to solve it effectively, so we'll just decide it's not really that much of a problem".  (See above re: expending money and effort, only to re-introduce the very thing you paid to overcome.)  I'd prefer to see the testing data and results before concluding it's not that much of a problem, especially if it's not hard to overcome.

We can agree to disagree about the location of the lines going to the radiator - again, I look at this as being declared acceptable due to lack of a better idea.  No need to get upset at me just because I don't suffer that lack of a better idea.

I've seen some references indicating the voids in mass-produced AIOs can go on 10%, and if you look at total volume of the pump, rad, and lines, I think you'd have to admit that it takes much less than 10% void to expose some part of the lines if they're mounted at the top of the system.  So even if it's much less than 10% air, it's potentially enough that the lines aren't completely submerged internally.

What's the basis for "extremely minimal risk"? (BTW how much is 'extremely minimal', anyway?)  Your risk of being in a plane crash might be extremely minimal - but if it happens, your odds of walking off are "extremely bad".

Everyone can do whatever they want, but let's not act as if there's no better way, simply because we couldn't think of it.  As I said, I don't suggest it's worth it.  People here spend thousands on CPUs and GPUs...but then we're going to entrust cooling to a system that's not optimal because some guy on Reddit said the effect is negligible?  Hmm...yeah, that makes sense  

My advice is to find the better way.  And, if it's approached properly, it's not necessarily hard or expensive.  The part that amazes me is that people go bananas over tiny variation in frame rates (as one  example) but then have no compunction whatsoever about dumping 100+F air back into their (sealed) case, while agonizing endlessly over 5c difference in temps.

I said earlier I didn't want to get too far off the subject.  Next thing you know, someone will be complaining about "derailing the thread" (which usually means someone doesn't like being proven wrong).  What I'm saying pretty much speaks for itself - let the reader decide.

The comments shown below are in the videos posted above, just so happens that the points illustrated show exactly what I'm saying.  I don't always agree with GN, but the "proof of the pudding", as they say... you can clearly see the lines sucking air bubbles (and as the bottom pic shows, you have to factor in that liquid level in your sealed AIO could be even lower than these pics show)

Edited January 18, 2023 by kksnowbear

[nikoel]

6 hours ago, Slammin said:

As for this radiator discussion, kksnowbear is correct on theory, but in practice, it's not always easy to achieve when dealing with more than one radiator in a given PC case, thus presenting a conflict or challenge if a goal is to have positive or equal air pressure within the case, while at the same time having both radiators as case exhausts, that get their air intake from a source outside the case.  Duct work?!? 

At the end of the day, many have tested actual impact of a front rad acting as an intake and the general consensus is that although not optimal, the actual real-world impact on overall system performance is negligible, although measurable from a temperature perspective. For a top mounted radiator, thermal dynamics would indicate a conflict if you made that rad an intake.  I've heard of folks doing it, but again, you would be feeding hot air into the case ordinarily, although I have seen a case that was built to exhaust this air through a special channel back to the outside of the case.  I can't remember who makes it.

I think in whatever situation, as long as the pump is lower than the radiator fittings, the risk of dry-pump is extremely minimal, unless the radiator fluid level is so low that it is barely effective in any heat dissipation.  Dry pump, or no way to dispel air bubbles is a great way to cripple a loop and kill a pump.

Back to my situation, it sure feels to me like there are some trade-offs going from 5950 to 5800X3D.  I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.  With the 5950, I could set all settings in fs2020 to ultra and LOD to 400 on flatscreen and although I wouldn't actually use those settings, they at least ran.  With the 5800X3D, those settings absolutely murder the CPU although once I set things to playable settings, it is more smoother than I have ever had.  For playability I have to set LOD much lower for the 5800x3d for fs2020.  I'm starting to look at DCS now too but initial impression is that I will likely put the 5950 back in.  Maybe I am having other issues but it seems like my GPU frametime has increased although CPU frametime shows a very nice reduction.  This forces me to run at lower res in VR and that is not something I want to do.  For all my racing sims and also for Star Wars, the 5800X3D provides a much smoother experience with no compromise anywhere.

More testing....

Wut?! MSFS does not utilise 32 threads. Hell it doesn't utilise 5800X3D to it's full potential either

In a properly configured and designed system 5950 will never get close to the performance of the X3D in simulation type games. Hell even 7950X doesn't get close

[Slammin]

I'm gonna go take a nap.

BTW, the 5800X3d stays.  For now.

[sun4eg]

I've built new PC recently with 5800X3D and 360 AIO (top-mounted). It did not make any noticeable difference in terms of CPU temp if fans blow cooler air from inside thru the rad or hotter air from the case thru the rad. It was idling at 40ish, in-game temps around 65ish. So I ended up using layout which makes most sense to me - don't introduce more heat into the system and blow air out of it thru the rad (probably at the cost of slightly higher rpm of fans&pump which I can tolerate). What made real difference - undervolting CPU with -30 offset: solid 10-15 degree drop.

Edit: makes sense also as long as more fans blow air in than blow it out which is still case for me even with 3x blowing out at the top.

Edited January 18, 2023 by sun4eg

[Dragon1-1]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:44 PM, Slammin said:

At the end of the day, many have tested actual impact of a front rad acting as an intake and the general consensus is that although not optimal, the actual real-world impact on overall system performance is negligible, although measurable from a temperature perspective. For a top mounted radiator, thermal dynamics would indicate a conflict if you made that rad an intake.

Just to let you know, I just bought a Corsair H100i cooler with two 240mm fans and a 5800X3D. One nice thing it has is a coolant temperature sensor, which showed a peak of whole 32 degrees on a CPU-Z stress test. The temperature in the room is 21 degrees, and the fans were barely spinning (less than 1000RPM). So I'm not blowing hot air into the case - at least unless we have a hot day (which we will, in the summer). I'm still adding exhaust additional fans, but mostly to have additional RGB to play with (although VRM and VSOC will appreciate the extra airflow), and also because the intake fans run at such sedate RPM that they're not doing much to cool the rest of it.

This was with front panel removed, but that's more down to my pick of the case not being particularly fortunate, and it will need some modifications (standoffs for the cover) to ensure adequate airflow with it on. It's pretty, but there's not enough space... well, anywhere, really. I'd have mounted the radiator on top, but there's no room up there. At least I was able to get the hoses pointed down, ended up looking quite nice.

[Voyager]

@kksnowbear On the front rad, one thing I wonder is, how it that different from having an internally exhausting sir cooled GPU? Isn't the heat going into the box, as is? 

Looking at the 4090s, and the MSI AIO one does seem to be the most readily available one at MSRP, and debating it or one of the rather large air cooled ones, but I've got an AIO radiator for the CPU already, so would need to either dismantle the whole PC or replace it to top mount the GPU cooler. 

On the other hand, I may need to dismantle a lot of stuff to mount the MSI cooler as well, so not sure whether it would be an easier mount than an air lead brick model. Also a bit concerned about the sheer weight of the air models bending things over time. 

On the "This is fine", as I recall, Jay was referencing the "this is fine" meme, not saying that was the right way to mount things.