What is the point of this forum?

[Hairdo1-1]

So nothing from this list has ever been implemented, or for that matter even dictated priorities. . For all we know not a single developer at ED ever looks at this forum

[Sr.]

Like my grandad use to say...

 

You can wish in one hand, and crap in the other... See which one fills up quicker.

[ADHS]

2 hours ago, Hairdo1-1 said:

So nothing from this list has ever been implemented

IMO: many have implemented but seamlessly.

Ideas for free with no cost, are always welcome.

[Grimes]

Think about the process involved with some of this stuff.

1. Someone that matters has to see it, think it is a good idea, and add it to a list of features to implement. 
2. Someone that makes scheduling decisions assigns devs to it or assertive dev decides to do it on their own
3. Development time which may or may not require other people/teams to contribute to the feature. For example a trigger can be added by a UI developer but the actual functionality needs to be done by someone else. 
4. Feature is implemented but needs to be merged to the next patch. Sometimes that can be the next patch after its implemented, or the one after that, or it could depend on something else and has to wait until that gets done first. 

This goes for all wishlist sections and from small changes to stuff that might take years to complete. 

[Exorcet]

Yes, if you go back far enough you will see suggestions that have been implemented into the game.

I do think this section could be more organized though, perhaps with ED highlighting a few ideas that are feasible and then letting the community choose between those ideas which are the most important to implement.

[TEMPEST.114]

Perhaps if it didn't feel like screaming into a void or shouting at clouds and had some real ED Feedback from the actual dev team, this might actually feel like it's accomplishing something.

As it stands, the community engagement and interaction is sorely lacking to non-existent. 

[macedk]

Well disagree here :).

I get good feedback, not on all but from time to time. 

Complaining without evidence (track file / log file etc), is not a way to point out there is a problem. In danger, many people scream "Watch out" but should be screaming "move left/right jump or hit the deck". Watch out just informs of an inement change of reality :).   

Also remember there a lot of variables, like in a LOT. 

Due to this forum, dev's sometimes catch things that they didn't  even consider testing for.  

So like with everything else 80% bad 15% eh and 5% pure gold

[NineLine]

14 hours ago, Hairdo1-1 said:

So nothing from this list has ever been implemented, or for that matter even dictated priorities. . For all we know not a single developer at ED ever looks at this forum

We did a favorite feature and bug request a while back and many were fixed or little features added. Some of the things people really want would require a total re-write of the ME, so nothing happens as fast as you or I would like, but things do happen. 

[Kappa-131st]

15 hours ago, Hairdo1-1 said:

So nothing from this list has ever been implemented, or for that matter even dictated priorities. . For all we know not a single developer at ED ever looks at this forum

I reported one bug once, with a breeding method... And ED anwser and fixed it!
Also, ED takes into consideration a minimum of feedback from players on this forum... Especially when we are constructive and we offer realistic ideas.

That said, if the bugs go back quickly to the development teams, the wishlists are there more to show the desires of the community, to suggest ideas to the developers, but they are not development specifications. And sometimes requests are listened to. For example, the lua function "outSoundForUnit" was suggested on this forum before being implemented, which is proof that ED takes feedback on this forum.

[Hairdo1-1]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

We did a favorite feature and bug request a while back and many were fixed or little features added. Some of the things people really want would require a total re-write of the ME, so nothing happens as fast as you or I would like, but things do happen. 

So there is a separate forum for ME bugs and I’m not questioning that things get fixed from that. I’m speaking for to this specific forum of ME wishlist that in over a year of following this I’ve never seen any response from ED. If I go into the Apache wish list section almost every post has a “not planned”, “investigating”, or “WIP” tag on it. Meanwhile this thread seems completely ignored (until now, and thank you btw)
 

now when you say “somethings would require a total re-write of the ME” are you implying that those features will never be implemented because ED won’t rewrite the ME or that (sort of like Multi-threading) it’s a work in progress? 

[TEMPEST.114]

4 hours ago, Hairdo1-1 said:

So there is a separate forum for ME bugs and I’m not questioning that things get fixed from that. I’m speaking for to this specific forum of ME wishlist that in over a year of following this I’ve never seen any response from ED. If I go into the Apache wish list section almost every post has a “not planned”, “investigating”, or “WIP” tag on it. Meanwhile this thread seems completely ignored (until now, and thank you btw)
 

now when you say “somethings would require a total re-write of the ME” are you implying that those features will never be implemented because ED won’t rewrite the ME or that (sort of like Multi-threading) it’s a work in progress? 

It's the utter lack of transparency that is the most insulting. We understand you're a small team. We understand commercial pressure and you have to fix the 'big ticket' items first and pump out more modules out to bring in money.

But your community is your lifeblood. The Mission Editor is the heart of that, it's the singular tool we have for pumping that lifeblood around. It's not only archaic, but it's vile to use. It's a hinderance and things that should be trivial take hours to do in it. Let alone the lack of undo/redo and multi-select / multi-edit or the broken auto-save system.

I've looked at the ME code - to shoe-horn that in, is a logistical nightmare and probably a total re-write. So that is the point, instead of a pat on the head and being sent away with no clue as to when or even IF something is ever going to get done, how about coming out and saying it. 'Yes we are working on a whole new mission editor, we have more news later this year' or 'no we're not working on it this year'. 

If you're not ashamed of the answer, then tell us. Don't be a Frontier and keep everything vague and silent and treat us like garbage, be like RSI and tell us roadmaps, plans, let us see and hear from the devs working on this stuff. Make the community *part* of the solution.

We're literally keeping you in business. We're your customers. We pay so you get to do the jobs you love.

We shouldn't be treated like mushrooms. 

There are CRITICAL FEATURES i.e. the menu commands per unit or coalition/group in moving zone that even your Beta Testers have said have been known about and asked for, for over EIGHT YEARS. The deficiencies in the ME are obvious to everyone who has tried to use it. Why aren't these - the very tools we need to keep the interest and variety in DCS alive, more of a priority?

The fact that great suggestions drop in this forum weekly, yet never even get a 'reported' or 'acknowledged' or 'working on it' tag... just means we're being treated like mushrooms. You may be working on all this - but actively withholding all that isn't about making the customers feel let down if you miss a deadline. It's about keep us engaged and knowing you're working on it. If there is nothing to be ashamed of, just tell us. We won't get 'mad' if you miss a few deadlines because you have to pull people off of something to fix something else - just *tell us*. We're all adults. 

[cfrag]

I believe that there are at least two distinct points here that seem to get intermingled: 

• One is that there are a lot of open points, bugs, missing features, strange side effects, unforeseen consequences and plain misunderstandings that get talked about in the forums. This is as it should be, and I feel that the volume of items seen here is not so much a criticism of ME's current state but a great chance to improve an important aspect of DCS.
• The other is that there is a rather large headroom for ED to engage with their community. The fact is that if ED set up a sub-forum called "wish-list", those who contribute to that forum expect (within a reasonable timeframe, weeks at most) some kind of feedback from someone with ED to their name. The idea here is that people who open a thread in a wish list do so because they assume that ED has an interest in their wishes; therefore they invest some of their time to compose a post. In their mind's eye, they do something constructive: invest themselves into DCS. And doing so, people document that they are willing to contribute to the success of DCS. What they would like (and even expect) in return is some kind of acknowledgement, or some form of recognition - not necessarily of their post, but their willingness to contribute to DCS.

I feel that even though the community is fully engaging with ED by communicating their dreams, wishes, bugs and ideas, in the past few years ED have been far too restraint in that department. Communication often feels like a one-way street. The result is that people get frustrated. Instead of a a way to contribute to DCS, many of these sub-forums appear to be little more than "steering wheels" installed in the backseat of cars to pacify children: done not to further a product, but to keep the community busy. That would be a terrible waste of everyone's time, and I'm near-certain that that's not ED's intention. Problem is: perception becomes reality. And the current perception is that - at this point in time - too many wish-list items, too many bug reports and too many questions have gone without any meaningful engagement from ED. The posts don't have to be answered. Most of us would be perfectly happy if they were, in some way, shape or form were just acknowledged or received some other form of recognition.

I feel that there is a lot of potential that's left untapped, and that a good step could be for ED to start opening up more toward their community. Have a rough, uncommitted roadmap for the next quarter, next year and next decade. Let people see what is being worked on, what is being thought about. It doesn't matter if that roadmap changes often - that's the nature of life. Reflect back to the community what they engaged in with monthly round-up of hottest issues - be they bugs, fixes or ideas. Or something else. At this point, I believe that pretty much anything that increases ED's engagement with their community would be welcome. I know that software developers are notoriously bad when it comes to communication - it comes with the territory. That doesn't mean that it's a fact - it's a challenge that I'm sure ED will be able to meet should they choose to focus on it.

Starting a new year seems the ideal point in time to initiate a change

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by cfrag

[Grimes]

18 hours ago, Kappa-131st said:

For example, the lua function "outSoundForUnit" was suggested on this forum before being implemented, which is proof that ED takes feedback on this forum.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh yes and no. 

Yes because perhaps someone saw posts about it and it aided a push to implement it. 

No because text, sound, and commands to units have been requested on the actual tracker since 2015 which is around the time that we could have multiple clients in a group. 

To be fair there are a ton of ideas that could improve the editor and scripting engine, some exist on the tracker while others don't. 

[jross194]

22 hours ago, NineLine said:

We did a favorite feature and bug request a while back and many were fixed or little features added. Some of the things people really want would require a total re-write of the ME, so nothing happens as fast as you or I would like, but things do happen. 

I was really happy to see that. Might this be done on a regular basis? Say, once a year, when you do the "20xx and Beyond" thing?

Edited January 21, 2023 by jross194

[jross194]

Everyone, including me, feels that their One Thing is really important. My Wish List post was viewed 100+ times; no response (positive or negative); scrolled off; never to be heard from again.

So...It's _tempting_ to feel like ED doesn't WANT me to expand on their sandbox. I know, I know, that's bordering on hyperbolic but around the "water cooler" this sentiment has been emoted by myself and others. 

I get it. I understand how complex this all is. It just feels like I, we?, are shouting into a void.

My "Wish"[1], again in my opinion, could go a long way towards me providing the player a useful AI wingman - but I get crickets (I'm not the only one that's broached this subject BTW). Yet I don't know if ED is planning to do this (add this feature) and therefore ignores it. Would be nice to know, even if it's just a "We're looking into this". Anyway...

Off the cuff: might there be an additional button here, in this forum, people might punch to "elevate this" - the "Like" button would seem obvious but doesn't appear to me to be used, or thought of, in this manner. Just a thought.

The ME is "okay" but I don't realistically expect them to spend the man-hours required to rebuild it - ick.

LUA is, IMHO, the only real way to do anything useful (complex) - the ME gives you a start and, I suppose, is a necessary entry point (for learning and to kickoff your lua code). Meaning: I personally don't need you to support all the possible paths an underlying function might produce in the ME - I'll do it myself. It's the low-level, basic, functionality that is important.

Finally, and my over-arching point: The creative types that seem to haunt this sub-forum can - will (cus they 'have to', by nature) - expand on your product in ways the ED team doesn't have time to. This will give DCS the 'legs' it needs to engage customers for years to come. MSFS would, IMO, be a fraction of what it is if support from third parties (and not just building texture maps) wasn't in place.

 

Oh, and thanks to those that have provided help here - and ESPECIALLLY to @Grimes I'd be lost without that wiki and your responses here over the years.

 

[1] Making your AI wingman semi-useful. In addtion to:

I've written about 10k lines of lua, using only single page of triggers (would be maybe 2 triggers if another 'requested feature' was implemented) that, for Single Player mode, does:

- Air Traffic Control (simplified but the structure is there to expand on it)

- Audio comms between the player an my AI 'agents' (ATC, ABCCC, etc) to include a text-to-speech engine (using nothing but lua)

- Whole lotta other useful things that bring the "World" part of DCS World to 'life'.

All in lua. Using less than ~2% of LUA CPU usage (difficult to measure exactly)

I'm sure others have done the same, and better. I'm just trying to give an example.

The point is: give us the low-level functionality and someone will do really cool stuff with it. Stuff that might keep your other customers more engaged (and therefore more likely to purchase more of your products).

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by jross194

[ADHS]

The whole picture will be much more clear
once you compare it with other games that
still have full servers, because they managed
to keep their communities productive/active
for more than 10 years.

Edited January 22, 2023 by ADHS

[NineLine]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:48 AM, Hairdo1-1 said:

So there is a separate forum for ME bugs and I’m not questioning that things get fixed from that. I’m speaking for to this specific forum of ME wishlist that in over a year of following this I’ve never seen any response from ED. If I go into the Apache wish list section almost every post has a “not planned”, “investigating”, or “WIP” tag on it. Meanwhile this thread seems completely ignored (until now, and thank you btw)
 

now when you say “somethings would require a total re-write of the ME” are you implying that those features will never be implemented because ED won’t rewrite the ME or that (sort of like Multi-threading) it’s a work in progress? 

We do not generally reply to wishlist threads but the do impact future directions. 

On 1/20/2023 at 11:48 AM, Hairdo1-1 said:

So there is a separate forum for ME bugs and I’m not questioning that things get fixed from that. I’m speaking for to this specific forum of ME wishlist that in over a year of following this I’ve never seen any response from ED. If I go into the Apache wish list section almost every post has a “not planned”, “investigating”, or “WIP” tag on it. Meanwhile this thread seems completely ignored (until now, and thank you btw)
 

now when you say “somethings would require a total re-write of the ME” are you implying that those features will never be implemented because ED won’t rewrite the ME or that (sort of like Multi-threading) it’s a work in progress? 

You might have seen someone sharing a web based ME today around different circles, it has features and such that could not be done in our ME currently. I dont think a re-write will happen, I think a rebirth will be easier and better in the long run, obviously I cannot say a lot, but look at examples like this as where the future is most likely headed. Understand right now though that the prime focus is on performance of the core, ME advancements and features dont mean much if it doesnt run worth a darn. 

14 hours ago, jross194 said:

I was really happy to see that. Might this be done on a regular basis? Say, once a year, when you do the "20xx and Beyond" thing?

 

It might be worth doing a new one, I'll have a think about it, my Task list needs to be caught up first

 

17 hours ago, Grimes said:

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh yes and no. 

Yes because perhaps someone saw posts about it and it aided a push to implement it. 

No because text, sound, and commands to units have been requested on the actual tracker since 2015 which is around the time that we could have multiple clients in a group. 

To be fair there are a ton of ideas that could improve the editor and scripting engine, some exist on the tracker while others don't. 

Also to be fair, there is a lot that cant be seen by anyone outside the ED team.

[TEMPEST.114]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

Also to be fair, there is a lot that cant be seen by anyone outside the ED team.

Kind of the point we're making. 

[Hairdo1-1]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

We do not generally reply to wishlist threads but the do impact future directions. 

You might have seen someone sharing a web based ME today around different circles, it has features and such that could not be done in our ME currently. I dont think a re-write will happen, I think a rebirth will be easier and better in the long run, obviously I cannot say a lot, but look at examples like this as where the future is most likely headed. Understand right now though that the prime focus is on performance of the core, ME advancements and features dont mean much if it doesnt run worth a darn. 

It might be worth doing a new one, I'll have a think about it, my Task list needs to be caught up first

 

Also to be fair, there is a lot that cant be seen by anyone outside the ED team.

I have seen that new web based ME that is being developed, very exciting. I would just say if ED is going to leave improving the Mission editor to the community and not do any of the work internally, please ensure the community has access to every possible aspect of the core game in order to create a workable alternative. 
 

“Understand right now though that the prime focus is on performance of the core, ME advancements and features dont mean much if it doesnt run worth a darn. ”

agreed but I would add that performance enhancements don’t mean much if the actually gameplay isn’t compelling, and compelling gameplay is created by mission creators who are only as good as the tools they are given. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Hairdo1-1

[TEMPEST.114]

21 hours ago, NineLine said:

ME advancements and features dont mean much if it doesnt run worth a darn. 

I'm so very, very tired of people's 'binary' thinking. Why does everything have to be all or nothing / good vs evil / black or white? LIFE IS GREY. Using a tool that would have sucked in the 1990's, in the third decade of the 21st century is unforgivable. I agree the CORE game has needed a re-write/overhaul for years - not just multithreading but AI, Pathing, Features and API. But as the previous poster said - if you don't give players tools they don't have to fight with just to make new content, then it could run at 90fs on a Reverb G2 and very few would play. Because it's the user driven content that keeps this game alive. Not a new module / map every 2+ years.