Why is DCS documentation so darned SPECTACULAR?

[CageyLobster]

37 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

And the ReadMe in that DOC folder reads in part:

 

I'm not arguing where they are located.  I'm arguing for a better file structure to make it more user friendly.  I just used the current file structure as an example.  It is a mess and if a program contains a readme (I never knew this, thank you for pointing this out) and a 390 page manual, what one is the player going to look at?  (I only skimmed the manual, so I could have missed it also.  I don't expect anyone to look really) I mention this because the manual doesn't seem to mention the file structure to locate any of the manuals.  We also have to remember some airframes need aerodrome information, or something else from another file location to facilitate start or other operations, and finding this information located in spall patches all over the file structure can become difficult and *frustrating*.  This makes anyone who pays attention notice just how disorganized this program is.  Sure, you can find the information, no one said it isn't their. (Until you start mentioning maps and other types of modules) I am saying it could be done better.  

We can do this all day.  It's either poorly implemented and in the future could use work, or the file system is fine and the readme is where the pertinent information is in DCS. You think it's fine, and I see room for improvement.  It's also hard when really experience people have responded all with different areas to find information in.  Or, know where to look for it, because it doesn't exist outside of a user file (Thank you soooo much content creatures) and then gets frustrated that a new player is frustrated.  

The most suggested thing for a new player is to download a chucks guide.  That's awesome.  Thanks Chuck.  But what would happen if that outside resource didn't exist?  The fact that that a chucks guide exists, mean improvement to the documentation and training methods used by ED could be improved.  This is again just an example of deficiencies and areas that long term may be looked at for standardization in training and layout of how the material is presented.  

Edit: words

Edited January 26, 2023 by CageyLobster

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, CageyLobster said:

My problem is when the community gets short with people who are frustrated looking and come here to be ridiculed by the player base cause its convoluted. 

Actually, I didn’t saw a single post here ridiculing the OP, but the smart-ass thread title undoubtedly predisposed a negative reaction from the community. 

[Pikey]

53 minutes ago, CageyLobster said:

My problem is when the community gets short with people who are frustrated looking and come here to be ridiculed by the player base cause its convoluted.  Also having a good manual and training and things that a new player first encounter in a working order goes to huge lengths in improving the experience and its an easy and cheap fix to start with some organization of the file directory.  No one is asking for manual rewrites and them to be correct 100% of the time in a EA module.

I also spent a lot of time in the military training, writing training plans, writing documents, tech order rewrites, validation and a ton of money spent training me in process improvement for maintenance actions at the wing level.  Where does it say to go look for the f-16 manual within the mods folder.   

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-16C\Doc

This is where my f-16 module documents are located.  Do you think most people are going to dig that deep to look for a manual?  Also if I'm English speaker it would be awesome if I didnt have to download all files that are only of that language to minimize hard drive space.  It could be worked if they ever made changes to the file system maybe.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc

When this folder exists higher up in the file structure?

While these are mostly DCSWorld documents it also has a charts folder

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc\Charts

This folder has Aerodrome charts for FC3. A10C, and a general one.  But, Aerodrome charts are kept here for Caucasus.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\terrains\Caucasus\Kneeboard

 

I say all this as someone who knows where the files are NOW.  Who knows where to go. Who spent time finding out where stuff is.  I spent a significant amount of time first finding them, then having to remember.  Finally I just now have a 2nd hard drive with manuals and files.

Asking here and getting mod testers who think the problem is people are lazy and don't look is exactly the problem here. I don't don't get this community often.  Super hostile to new players and yet unwilling to make it better for them.  Nope, we are just gonna hog pile a new player for not knowing and asking a question in a manner we don't see fit, all the while refusing to see how things could be better.  Whatever, I know how to play this game.  I'm not here to make customers. 

Later gators

 

This isn't messy guys? 

nullThe OP asked about the core game files, without conflating module and game files, which are seperate for good reasons
Note that I never said 'lazy'. Don't put words in my mouth. I said 'didn't look'.

Let's look then:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/

It's the fifth question.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/documentation/
Beautiful tiled wall of module documentation ready for selection.

From Google, its got the answer right there, it's even got a video with 5400 views. I maintain, this is not looking for the documentation.

So the last thing to wrap up is why negativity was attracted to this post.
Let's see, someone writes a sarcastic topic title:

Why is DCS documentation so darned SPECTACULAR?nullnull

Where not once but several times they state they can write a better manual than ED, proclaiming that if it were not a fail and was more prominent then they would be able to find out how to use a Windows dialogue box to save their campaign.

Yes, the question was, where does it need to be saved. And the answer is that it is completely irrelevant.

So we gotta go to the forums to be sarcastic because that's how adults behave, instead of simply asking the question
"Does it matter where I save my campaign file?" without all the sarcasm and ranting.

And folks wonder why, after years of seeing this behaviour (and the repeat quesitons) why we cannot hold people accountable to acting like adults and thus being treated like adults. It's simply a matter of how you ask attracts the answer in the format you asked it. That's why this happens and it shouldn't be a mystery!
 

 

[BuzzU]

1 hour ago, CageyLobster said:

I'm not arguing where they are located.  I'm arguing for a better file structure to make it more user friendly.  I just used the current file structure as an example.  It is a mess and if a program contains a readme (I never knew this, thank you for pointing this out) and a 390 page manual, what one is the player going to look at?  (I only skimmed the manual, so I could have missed it also.  I don't expect anyone to look really) I mention this because the manual doesn't seem to mention the file structure to locate any of the manuals.  We also have to remember some airframes need aerodrome information, or something else from another file location to facilitate start or other operations, and finding this information located in spall patches all over the file structure can become difficult and *frustrating*.  This makes anyone who pays attention notice just how disorganized this program is.  Sure, you can find the information, no one said it isn't their. (Until you start mentioning maps and other types of modules) I am saying it could be done better.  

We can do this all day.  It's either poorly implemented and in the future could use work, or the file system is fine and the readme is where the pertinent information is in DCS. You think it's fine, and I see room for improvement.  It's also hard when really experience people have responded all with different areas to find information in.  Or, know where to look for it, because it doesn't exist outside of a user file (Thank you soooo much content creatures) and then gets frustrated that a new player is frustrated.  

The most suggested thing for a new player is to download a chucks guide.  That's awesome.  Thanks Chuck.  But what would happen if that outside resource didn't exist?  The fact that that a chucks guide exists, mean improvement to the documentation and training methods used by ED could be improved.  This is again just an example of deficiencies and areas that long term may be looked at for standardization in training and layout of how the material is presented.  

Edit: words

 

So, where are the PG charts?

[CageyLobster]

59 minutes ago, Pikey said:

nullThe OP asked about the core game files, without conflating module and game files, which are seperate for good reasons
Note that I never said 'lazy'. Don't put words in my mouth. I said 'didn't look'.

Let's look then:
 

I'm sorry.  But you guys keep linking to all these locations for files that an experienced player would know where to look for, but aren't centrally located or streamlined at all.  You guys are defending a poorly implemented system for no other reason then, it works for me. 

Is their room for improvement yes:  no:  

That is literally what Im arguing about.  Because you guys seem to think the current system is fine.  But, clearly it is not.  Not broken mind you, but could use a new paint job.

My post was never about the documentation.  It was about the fact OP had a real grievance and was frustrated because he couldn't find the documentation that was needed.  I provided some points that backed up OP.  People responded with other locations to look and have zero empathy when OP didn't know that, and got frustrated (also non English speaking)  You guys jumped to a conclusion that OP's frustration was being rude.  Maybe they are just stressed.  You guys are also older and come from a time when reading imbedded files and instruction manuals were required.  You guys realize my kid has never read a manual for a video game yet...cause everything now is tutorialized in game, or has a video explaining the system.  But, ED is this ever changing monster and things are ever changing.  So it's hard finding clear concise answers to a lot of things.

A lot of you guys have a real high post count or a forum badge as part of ED ( Are you speaking as a ED as an employee or a person that just knows?  Seriously? I can't figure the two out and I think the forum badges often become more confusing from where the message is coming from)  You guys with high post counts are the Liaison of my community, and often the message you say isn't one I agree with.  If the files are confusing to just 1 person and ED finds time in the future and has nothing to do...I expect them to try and improve that 1 players experience.  Not because it needs it or would help the guy whos been here for 10 years.  New players are your life blood.  If the experience isn't good for them, then your F2P business will die out.  

Don't hold up progress just cause you guys looked and so should someone else.  Stop gate keeping.  Be accepting of the huge stressor this game is and how it could be improved ever so slightly by changing the in-game file structure...maybe...when they have time.  Or their are any other number of changes.  But if a frustrated player has a real complaint (It is a real complaint.  Show me the PG aerodrome charts) The frustration isn't pointed at you, it's pointed at ED.  They don't need you to be the hero.  Just explain where they can find it (The 2nd response did that)  and move on if you have nothing of merit to add and are just coming by to condemn someone.  

Their is a reason this is a last stop for the community.

 

Edit @NineLine or @BIGNEWY I assume in a bit you guys can lock this.  I don't see it going much further, but I would like the other members a chance to respond since all arguments have 2 sides?  Anyway, thanks

Edited January 26, 2023 by CageyLobster

[BuzzU]

2 hours ago, CageyLobster said:

My problem is when the community gets short with people who are frustrated looking and come here to be ridiculed by the player base cause its convoluted.  Also having a good manual and training and things that a new player first encounter in a working order goes to huge lengths in improving the experience and its an easy and cheap fix to start with some organization of the file directory.  No one is asking for manual rewrites and them to be correct 100% of the time in a EA module.

I also spent a lot of time in the military training, writing training plans, writing documents, tech order rewrites, validation and a ton of money spent training me in process improvement for maintenance actions at the wing level.  Where does it say to go look for the f-16 manual within the mods folder.   

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-16C\Doc

This is where my f-16 module documents are located.  Do you think most people are going to dig that deep to look for a manual?  Also if I'm English speaker it would be awesome if I didnt have to download all files that are only of that language to minimize hard drive space.  It could be worked if they ever made changes to the file system maybe.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc

When this folder exists higher up in the file structure?

While these are mostly DCSWorld documents it also has a charts folder

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc\Charts

This folder has Aerodrome charts for FC3. A10C, and a general one.  But, Aerodrome charts are kept here for Caucasus.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\terrains\Caucasus\Kneeboard

 

I say all this as someone who knows where the files are NOW.  Who knows where to go. Who spent time finding out where stuff is.  I spent a significant amount of time first finding them, then having to remember.  Finally I just now have a 2nd hard drive with manuals and files.

Asking here and getting mod testers who think the problem is people are lazy and don't look is exactly the problem here. I don't don't get this community often.  Super hostile to new players and yet unwilling to make it better for them.  Nope, we are just gonna hog pile a new player for not knowing and asking a question in a manner we don't see fit, all the while refusing to see how things could be better.  Whatever, I know how to play this game.  I'm not here to make customers. 

Later gators

 

This isn't messy guys? 

You know what I think the rudest thing you can do to someone? Ignore them. You've done it twice to me so far. Want to try for three times? Where are the charts for PG?

[Eugel]

1 hour ago, CageyLobster said:

My post was never about the documentation.  It was about the fact OP had a real grievance and was frustrated because he couldn't find the documentation that was needed.  I provided some points that backed up OP.  People responded with other locations to look and have zero empathy when OP didn't know that, and got frustrated (also non English speaking)  You guys jumped to a conclusion that OP's frustration was being rude.  Maybe they are just stressed. 

Well he could have just opened a thread asking "Hey, I have some questions about the campaign builder, can someone help ?" or "I can´t find the manual, please help"
Instead he did it in a somewhat agressive and sarcastic way. He claimed that there was no manual that describes what he was looking for, which is false.

I agree that it would be a brilliant idea to put a new entry "Manuals" or something like that within the game´s main menu that links to all the documentation.
But you don´t have to know or struggle with DCS´s file structure, just typing "DCS manual" into google gets you to the required manual within seconds. Yes, it´s not on the first page of the download section if you don´t choose a language, you have to click to page two to find it... still takes less time than writing a post about how hard it is to find.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, CageyLobster said:

My post was never about the documentation.  It was about the fact OP had a real grievance and was frustrated because he couldn't find the documentation that was needed.

 

For me, the important items are the manuals themselves and their quality (or lack of it), not where they are located .. honestly, if a person is frustrated because the manual isn't where he wants it, then most likely this Sim is a wrong match for him and he should look for something easier.

[CageyLobster]

4 hours ago, BuzzU said:

So, where are the PG charts?

I don't know.  That's why I also asked.  This is what I use though until I can find better.  I wasn't ignoring you, but you said you didn't understand what the problem was with the documentation in the game.  So I just listed some off the issues I knew of top of my head.  Again, sorry wasn't trying to be rude, but I didn't have your answer either.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312200/

[CageyLobster]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

For me, the important items are the manuals themselves and their quality (or lack of it), not where they are located .. honestly, if a person is frustrated because the manual isn't where he wants it, then most likely this Sim is a wrong match for him and he should look for something easier.

You can't imagine that's a good business model can you? 

Also you were never asked what your opinion was by OP. The 2nd response to OP answered his question.  At that point no one else needed to respond.  But, like often you guys do without empathy or understanding and little regard to see how things could be improved. That was my point in defending OP by asking where certain documents were located.  I asked because I new they were in different files and folders within DCS.  Making it convoluted.  You voiced your opinion without adding anything beneficial to the discussion, other than I know where to look and I read readme files.  That's great.  It helps OP in no way.

I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm just a whiner ...

 

Actually, I think that you belong to that type of user which is always right and any faults he suffers are someone else's blame  ... if instead of ranting, you had just asked on the Forum you would have found the manual very quickly.

 

Neither does this response by you one the 1st page.  You can say what you want about OP being frustrated, but I hope you can understand how I would expect better from my community.  Especially one such as yourself within it @Rudel_chw

 

[BuzzU]

29 minutes ago, CageyLobster said:

I don't know.  That's why I also asked.  This is what I use though until I can find better.  I wasn't ignoring you, but you said you didn't understand what the problem was with the documentation in the game.  So I just listed some off the issues I knew of top of my head.  Again, sorry wasn't trying to be rude, but I didn't have your answer either.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312200/

Yes, but the example you gave me doesn't exist. The charts for the other maps or at least the ones I looked at are exactly where I said they were. Plane manuals are in the plane folders and terrain in the terrain folders. Not sure why PG doesn't have any. Devs need to explain it. Manuals aren't that hard to find.

I believe the link you posted is user made.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, CageyLobster said:

Also you were never asked what your opinion was by OP

 

OK, for me this thread has run its course, in the future I will wait until asked, before voicing my opinion. 

[Azorath]

DCS Manual; 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Azorath