Aircraft liveries: optional or mandatory?

[Northstar98]

Just now, MAXsenna said:

@Northstar98
Well, the three of us have basically tried to explain the same thing.
Sharpy is just doing his usual thing at this point.

Yep...

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It's not a big deal with proper tools:

Download base livery only

Download historic liveries only

Download assorted liverys up to X GB

Download all

The only way I ever saw this work well (in a certain WWI sim) was that the skins were periodically made available in official DLC packs, these were separated by category such as historical, fantasy etc but the idea was you got a pack, not forced to manage them individually. They were easily installed by everyone and consequently actually got used online, in campaigns etc. because everyone had easy access to them. 

[SharpeXB]

29 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Hell I'll give you a better example: DCS' own freaking updater. When you run it it performs an analysis that lasts for a few seconds and if you're missing liveries it will redownload them - all a livery manager would need to do is control which of them it installs.

A manager like the updater would work for this. That’s not the problem. The problem is organizing the files themselves (if this is user generated content). To make this work the creators have to adhere to some simple conventions like file naming and creating thumbnail images perhaps. Keeping these updated with the game etc. that’s the problem. Otherwise a simple manger program isn’t a big deal. 
And I can see a manger with categories like fictional, historical etc but not little checkboxes for 1,000 different files. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The only way I ever saw this work well (in a certain WWI sim) was that the skins were periodically made available in official DLC packs, these were separated by category such as historical, fantasy etc but the idea was you got a pack, not forced to manage them individually. They were easily installed by everyone and consequently actually got used online, in campaigns etc. because everyone had easy access to them. 

And what's being proposed here is hardly any different.

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A manager like the updater would work for this. That’s not the problem. The problem is organizing the files themselves (if this is user generated content). To make this work the creators have to adhere to some simple conventions like file naming and creating thumbnail images perhaps. Keeping these updated with the game etc. that’s the problem. Otherwise a simple manger program isn’t a big deal. 
And I can see a manger with categories like fictional, historical etc but not little checkboxes for 1,000 different files. 

 

This topic keeps coming up mostly due to file space, and it's frequently mentioned by people who do bring it up that they don't care about liveries for planes they don't have/fly/see. Even without thumbnails or naming conventions someone could make use of the manager by scrolling through all the WWII planes and disabling all liveries because they only fly the F-14. What sense does it make to have all the liveries in a single list when they're plane exclusive? This isn't any where near as complicated as you're trying to make it.

[Northstar98]

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A manager like the updater would work for this. That’s not the problem. The problem is organizing the files themselves (if this is user generated content).

They're already organised by aircraft, but yes it would be nice (but even if they didn't it wouldn't be a major issue - less ideal, but not inhibitive) and I'm going to focus on official liveries because unofficial liveries are opt in to begin with. I already have to go through each in the user files and download each one I want on their own separate pages.

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

To make this work the creators have to adhere to some simple conventions like file naming and creating thumbnail images perhaps. Keeping these updated with the game etc. that’s the problem.

Again, you're talking about unofficial liveries that are already opt in - they aren't really relevant to the OPs request because they don't get automatically downloaded in the first place.

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And I can see a manger with categories like fictional, historical etc but not little checkboxes for 1,000 different files.

Why not? The example I gave you does exactly that.

It should leave them all checked by default and if people want to opt out they can take the time to opt out of whatever livery/liveries they want, people who aren't bothered and/or wnt everything won't need to touch it.

At minimum it should be organised by aircraft (as the liveries already are) with an option to select all/deselect all (with all selected by default). To make it even easier there could be the same option for each aircraft (in the exact same fashion as the radio contact when contact/engage/kill in the advanced waypoint actions) allowing you to clear the liveries quickly for individual aircraft.

And ideally we'd have categories for historical, fictional, "x country" whatever.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

And what's being proposed here is hardly any different.

The request here seems to be along the lines of selecting and or managing individual files. I don’t think that’s workable. I could see a single check box on the install manager for extra historical or fantasy skins for the entire game but that’s all. The idea of browsing through thousands of skins is nuts. 

13 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

This topic keeps coming up mostly due to file space, and it's frequently mentioned by people who do bring it up that they don't care about liveries for planes they don't have/fly/see

You do see every plane in this sim whether you own it or not. So you’d need its skins. 

[Exorcet]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The request here seems to be along the lines of selecting and or managing individual files. I don’t think that’s workable. I could see a single check box on the install manager for extra historical or fantasy skins for the entire game but that’s all. The idea of browsing through thousands of skins is nuts.

Again, your opinions are not universal. All you've said is that you don't like the idea of managing individual skins.

You've also been given multiple solutions to the problem, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. I'll try to explain one last time:

 

Liveries would be divided by plane because that's only sensible. You can't put F-16 liveries on the F-86. This already divides 1000's of liveries into groups of 10's and maybe at worst 100's. With options like "disable all" for each plane, you don't have much clicking to do unless you want a very precise list of liveries, in which case the ability to go through each would be a benefit. Now how things will end up working in the actual game code is another matter, but conceptually there is a very simple and easy to use solution being proposed.

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You do see every plane in this sim whether you own it or not. So you’d need its skins. 

There are zero WWII aircraft in the entirety of my F-16 campaign. Additionally, an aircraft with no livery still loads, it just has the default missing texture skin. What are you talking about.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Liveries would be divided by plane because that's only sensible.

I don’t even imagine that makes sense because you see all the other aircraft regardless. Perhaps separating them by era makes sense. Just keep it simple… that’s what was nice about the system in the other sim. The result was that you actually saw all these being used in the game, online, in campaigns etc. If it’s too complicated people won’t bother with it. 

9 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There are zero WWII aircraft in the entirety of my F-16 campaign. Additionally, an aircraft with no livery still loads, it just has the default missing texture skin. What are you talking about.

What gets tough about this is the sandbox nature of DCS. The aircraft aren’t in easily defined eras or scenarios. Sure WWII is easy enough to separate out as a group. What about the others? Heck there’s a campaign flying the F-86 against modern aircraft. The Cold War and modern stuff all overlaps. 

[Northstar98]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:14 PM, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think that’s workable.

You've been given examples to the contrary and several ideas that absolutely make it workable.

On 1/26/2023 at 5:14 PM, SharpeXB said:

I could see a single check box on the install manager for extra historical or fantasy skins for the entire game but that’s all. The idea of browsing through thousands of skins is nuts.

If you don't want to bother with it, then you don't have to.

Ultimately, if I want to achieve what the idea entails without a manager, I'd have to go through thousands of liveries every time DCS updates and every time a repair is run, which is just about every month for the former...

With this idea, I'd have to do it once and I'd be done with it.

You tell me which one is more "nuts".

On 1/26/2023 at 5:14 PM, SharpeXB said:

 You do see every plane in this sim whether you own it or not. So you’d need its skins. 

If I never use a plane in any of the missions I fly - no I don't. Even if I did, all that would happen is I'd see a missing texture and if I don't want to see that, then I would only need one.

On 1/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, SharpeXB said:

I don’t even imagine that makes sense

What do you mean you don't even imagine that making sense? That's how they're organised already!

On 1/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, SharpeXB said:

Perhaps separating them by era makes sense.

How does that make more sense over sorting them by aircraft, in their own little menu?

If it lists every aircraft and when you click on it, it expands to show all the official liveries associated with that module. That means I only need to see one module's liveries at any one time (so no different to the mission editor).

On 1/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, SharpeXB said:

If it’s too complicated people won’t bother with it. 

I really fail to see how a simple list with checkboxes, with items appropriately categorised, that can be filtered and searched if need be, is remotely complicated. I mean, this isn't even to the level of the Windows 10 file explorer...

Edited March 13, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

You've been given examples to the contrary and several ideas that absolutely make it workable.

If you don't want to bother with it, then you don't have to.

Ultimately, if I want to achieve what the idea entails without a manager, I'd have to go through thousands of liveries every time DCS updates and every time a repair is run, which is just about every month for the former...

With this idea, I'd have to do it once and I'd be done with it.

You tell me which one is more "nuts".

If I never use a plane in any of the missions I fly - no I don't. Even if I did, all that would happen is I'd see a missing texture and if I don't want to see that, then I would only need one.

What do you mean you don't even imagine that making sense? That's how they're organised already!

How does that make more sense over sorting them by aircraft, in their own little menu?

If it lists every aircraft and when you click on it, it expands to show all the official liveries associated with that module. That means I only need to see one module's liveries at any one time (so no different to the mission editor).

A really fail to see how a simple list with checkboxes, with items appropriately categorised, that can be filtered and searched if need be, is remotely complicated. I mean, this isn't even to the level of the Windows 10 file explorer...

I agree with the idea of having a separate skin install. To a point… not making it this so obsessive compulsive though. Like there’s a box on the installer for the WWII asset pack. But not a drill down menu to select and deselect every unit in it. Keeping the idea simple means a greater chance it will get implemented and used. 

[Northstar98]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

I agree with the idea of having a separate skin install. To a point… not making it this so obsessive compulsive though.

If you don't want to go through them, then don't go through them...

For people who do, what's the problem with letting them?

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

If you don't want to go through them, then don't go through them...

For people who do, what's the problem with letting them?

I imagine programming this with thousands of selections and updates is much more complicated than just having these all in a batch. So if that function isn’t going to get utilized much it’s probably not worth doing. 

[Northstar98]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I imagine programming this with thousands of selections and updates is much more complicated than just having these all in a batch.

But the current updater isn't just programmed for each livery, it's programmed to be able to analyse the files currently installed and download ones missing or different and exclude the rest.

The livery manager only needs to do the latter.

And programming a list is pretty simple, every game I've played has managed it, including DCS. Even for things with thousands of entries like C:MO.

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

But the current updater isn't just programmed for each livery, it's programmed to be able to analyse the files currently installed and download ones missing or different and exclude the rest.

The livery manager only needs to do the latter.

And programming a list is pretty simple, every game I've played has managed it, including DCS. Even for things with thousands of entries like C:MO.

If you’re selecting and managing each of these you need to see an image for it unlike the simple install manager has right now. Again it just seems more and more infeasible the more skins there are. And the point of having this separate install is being able to have more and more of these. I have a skin manager like this for another sim. Yeah it’s great but it wasn’t made by the dev team, it’s a community tool. And I just batch select everything. 

[Northstar98]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

If you’re selecting and managing each of these you need to see an image for it unlike the simple install manager has right now.

Nope, I only need to see its name, just like I only need to see its name when selecting them from the mission editor.

Again, this is predominantly intended to be an opt-out system - I probably already know which liveries I want and which liveries I don't.

On 1/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

Again it just seems more and more infeasible the more skins there are.

How?

On 1/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

And the point of having this separate install is being able to have more and more of these.

It's the exact polar opposite...

The point of it is to facilitate a way of opting out of liveries that install by themselves. Right now, if I want to do this, I have to go through each one and delete the ones I don't want for whatever reason every single time the game updates and/or is repaired.

This only applies to official liveries, because unofficial liveries are opt-in to begin with.

On 1/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

I have a skin manager like this for another sim. Yeah it’s great but it wasn’t made by the dev team, it’s a community tool.

And?

Edited January 29, 2023 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

@Northstar98
Well, the three of us have basically tried to explain the same thing.
Sharpy is just doing his usual thing at this point.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I figure a livery manger would be awesome I would though like to see it connect to the user files section 

Edited January 26, 2023 by upyr1

[MAXsenna]

I have sharp on ignore since 9 /10 times his comments show his handle is a bit ironic. seriosly though I figure a livery manger would be awesome I would though like to see it connect to the user files section 

Yeah, I remember you had enough at one point.
To be honest, what we really need is an official launcher like Skate's. Where you can change DCS settings before you start, with an incorporated DLC manager with support for official liveries, a mod manager and a livery manager for unofficial liveries.
Like I wrote above, and unofficial livery manager exits, and it works really well. Sets up the correct folders in Saved Games. You only have to browse the user files, get the ID, and enter it for the manager to download, unpack and put the livery in the correct place.
It's even easier than mods.
Why Sharpy finds it cumbersome, my guess is he never use any user liveries.
His loss!

Cheers!

PS: It doesn't support the Mirage F1 or the MB-339 currently.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Nope, I only need to see its name, just like I only need to see its name when selecting them from the mission editor.

Most anyone is going to want to see an image of what they’re selecting. It’s not too user friendly otherwise. 

12 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I figure a livery manger would be awesome I would though like to see it connect to the user files section

In order for that to work the users would need to format their content for the manager. They’d have to eliminate duplicate file names and such. The way this is done in another sim is nice, but it’s probably just too complicated for most people. The best way I ever saw this done was a simple DLC pack. That means submitting the skins to the devs to be evaluated and organized. Then they get included as official content. 

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Why Sharpy finds it cumbersome, my guess is he never use any user liveries.

It’s cumbersome compared to what I’ve seen elsewhere. And navigating the User Files section here for skins is just a no go. It’s a giant waste of time. Even the skin downloader in the other games is nice but still too complicated. If you’ve seen that WWI sim you might know how it was done. It was really the best way. 

[MAXsenna]

It’s cumbersome compared to what I’ve seen elsewhere. And navigating the User Files section here for skins is just a no go. It’s a giant waste of time. Even the skin downloader in the other games is nice but still too complicated. If you’ve seen that WWI sim you might know how it was done. It was really the best way. 

Ah, you're comparing to other games.
Hence why we should have a launcher with all the features I suggested.
And don't start blabbing about the 10K liveries. One could start from scratch.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Northstar98]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Most anyone is going to want to see an image of what they’re selecting. It’s not too user friendly otherwise.

Yes, but it's hardly a necessity. So long as the name is clear and descriptive, it isn't absolutely necessary to have a thumbnail. Nice to have? Absolutely. Necessary for it to work? No.

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In order for that to work the users would need to format their content for the manager.

All they would need to do is not use duplicate file names within a single aircraft (which they should be doing already, because that would lead to problems without involving a livery manager) and have some way of telling the manager which category it belongs to - which again, a similar thing is already present for the unit listing in DCS (where there are general categories, sub categories and even further sub categories).

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The way this is done in another sim is nice, but it’s probably just too complicated for most people.

What's complicated about it? Again, we're mostly focused on official liveries because they're the only ones where an opt-out function would be desireable for some. That doesn't apply to unofficial liveries because they're opt-in to begin with and don't automatically get installed when installing/updating/repairing, they only get installed when you go out of your way to install them.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

38 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Ah, you're comparing to other games.
Hence why we should have a launcher with all the features I suggested.
 

Yeah hard to stay away from. I’ve only seen this done successfully one other game. By “successful” I mean you clearly saw that every player was using them and they all had easy access to thousands of skins. It added a lot to the game. That was done with a simple DLC pack. And that was the only Dev created solution for that much content I’ve ever seen. Other than DCS which just puts them in the base and and forget about it. Honestly there probably aren’t enough official skins here to make a more complex solution worthwhile. 

46 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

What's complicated about it?

It’s a separate install. It’s got lots of options and selections. It’s community made which means it might just get abandoned at some point. It takes hours to screw around with.
All that compared to simply clicking one button and getting thousands of skins. 

[Exorcet]

I went ahead and made an image to represent what the livery manager might look like based on the module manager:

The quick options are additive:

Default Livery is the first livery on the list when the aircraft is set as a member of its home nation

Home Country Liveries are the above along with any other livery from the home nation

Historical Liveries are the above along with export liveries or liveries representing similar but not identical foreign planes (F-2 vs F-16)

Basic Liveries - I included an option for devs to have a small list of varied livers for those players with limited disc space

Extra Liveries - Basically the opposite of Basic, an extended list for those users with no concerns about disc space

All Liveries - Check all boxes, download everything.

 

To the right is the full list of liveries for manual selection

 

There is a confirm choices button below to tell DCS to go ahead of add/remove liveries as requested.

 

I just wanted to put something together to start the discussion on what exactly should be included so that we don't end up with a vague request.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Exorcet

[SharpeXB]

39 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I went ahead and made an image to represent what the livery manager might look like based on the module manager:

The quick options are additive:

Default Livery is the first livery on the list when the aircraft is set as a member of its home nation

Home Country Liveries are the above along with any other livery from the home nation

Historical Liveries are the above along with export liveries or liveries representing similar but not identical foreign planes (F-2 vs F-16)

Basic Liveries - I included an option for devs to have a small list of varied livers for those players with limited disc space

Extra Liveries - Basically the opposite of Basic, an extended list for those users with no concerns about disc space

All Liveries - Check all boxes, download everything.

 

To the right is the full list of liveries for manual selection

 

There is a confirm choices button below to tell DCS to go ahead of add/remove liveries as requested.

 

I just wanted to put something together to start the discussion on what exactly should be included so that we don't end up with a vague request.

 

To simplify that I’d put it under DCS World, not just the F-16. Where install “All” means for every aircraft. And I’m not sure how any of the categories make sense for DCS. How does a player know what Historical or Extra or Basic means? With no image to show what they look like and trying to show images means showing dozens of them to choose from. That’s a pain to go through. In the end just installing All is the only thing that makes sense. Which is what we have now. So why bother?

Edited January 26, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I went ahead and made an image to represent what the livery manager might look like based on the module manager:

The quick options are additive:

Default Livery is the first livery on the list when the aircraft is set as a member of its home nation

Home Country Liveries are the above along with any other livery from the home nation

Historical Liveries are the above along with export liveries or liveries representing similar but not identical foreign planes (F-2 vs F-16)

Basic Liveries - I included an option for devs to have a small list of varied livers for those players with limited disc space

Extra Liveries - Basically the opposite of Basic, an extended list for those users with no concerns about disc space

All Liveries - Check all boxes, download everything.

 

To the right is the full list of liveries for manual selection

 

There is a confirm choices button below to tell DCS to go ahead of add/remove liveries as requested.

 

I just wanted to put something together to start the discussion on what exactly should be included so that we don't end up with a vague request.

 

That doesn't look like a bad set up- just a few changes I would make first historic liveries should be liveries used by aces and other famous pilots and then add a category for export liveries. I like having the menu for each aircraft and I would also have a DCS core option we also need a good system for multiplayer. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by upyr1