F-22 Thread

[Downey Jr.]

Match? Heh. There's no need to match the PAK-FA.

 

you think the US is simply going to let Russia have the most advanced a-a fighter?

 

they are gonna blow a couple more billion on the next x-fighter program...endless cycle...but we all knew that...just saying as much as I love jets and planes...they will find a way to screw all taxpayers over as usual just to have the next best thing always.

[Downey Jr.]

They already have it...whats your point?

 

The other F-X fighter is a long term program and will give the US the first of its kind in the world, by that time the PAk-Fa will be old.

 

that's exactly my point...the US is already working on a new fighter program and the billions spent on the Raptor shall go away within a few years...

 

my point being was it all really worth it? unless you have a hard on for war I don't exactly want my tax paying dollars spent on little science experiments like the Raptor ...they screwed up by how much the thing costs

[tflash]

About the "Dima and Vova got PAK-FA from Ded Moroz, I want new toy too" thingy, Cold War is over. If by chance things go hot (or Cold, for that matter) again, I wouldn't doubt that there might be more F-22s, possibly upgraded to cover any disadvantage with operational PAK-FA (hopefully with a new official designation by then), coming out.

 

 

Once the F-22 production line is shut down (it still isn't) this is unlikely: it just isn't economical and sometimes technically impossible to revive a production line, certainly not in this domain, where you have almost instantanious part obsolescence.

 

If the line gets cold, it would be almost certainly another design that would be fielded.

 

The 2011 budget opens the door for F-22 export exploration, which could turn the table.

[Pilotasso]

Export= hell froze up :D

[topol-m]

 

The 2011 budget opens the door for F-22 export exploration, which could turn the table.

 

Japan might finally get it.

[GGTharos]

The USAF will pull all the stops out at putting a stop to such export, I'm pretty sure.

[Boberro]

you think the US is simply going to let Russia have the most advanced a-a fighter?

 

PAK FA even doesn't have any A-A missile ready to mount yet. It is big movement in Russain aviation, but i doubt it is better than F-22. Maybe after feeeeew years.

My personal opinion.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

PAK-FA was built later.

 

They know what did and didn't work with the F-22, and why. Also, there are all the improvements in avionics and etc. done in the meantime.

 

So you expect it to at least match the F-22A.

 

But the F-22 and F-35 still have the edge when it comes to delivering the package. Even if the PAK-FA becomes the Chuck Norris of 5th gen fighters, the situation right now makes this possible:

 

Sneak under radar, track without being detected, counter ECM and jam his radar, close in his dead six.

 

-Great!

 

...then sees something dropping, a flash and a blast.

 

Well, that can ruin your day, really :music_whistling:

 

But then of course, missiles are in development to close the gap.

 

All discussion we're doing today might be useless when these planes actually become operational (talkin' 'bout F-35 and PAK-FA), and then may become useless again when official data about them is released.

 

And for Downey, just a reminder that Cold War is over.

 

It's always good to have an edge, of course. But insisting on this "Bad Russian Dude That Will Try To Kill Us" line of thinking can be misleading sometimes :smilewink:

[exec]

Also, there are all the improvements in avionics and etc. done in the meantime.

Actually they (Russians) can't make any improvements in avionics, becouse they still don't have the it!

[Downey Jr.]

.

 

And for Downey, just a reminder that Cold War is over.

 

It's always good to have an edge, of course. But insisting on this "Bad Russian Dude That Will Try To Kill Us" line of thinking can be misleading sometimes :smilewink:

 

heh I got you man, but I was actually trying to defend the Russians because who's really trying to always out gun everyone is the US...you are right and why should the US rush to develop something better but that's the point, they probably are and there's no way in hell that IF the Raptor retires the US will just fly upgraded blocs of older jets and the F-35 (which again is an international plane sorta...many countries will have it...JOINT strike etc.)

[Lucas_From_Hell]

I got your point, it's just that, well, that approach can lead to deep sh... in discussions involving military and politics.

 

Everyone's doing it, it's nothing new. Russia had the R-73, US shows them AIM-9X and so on. But we're now in a new age. For 50 years, both countries were waiting for the other to start blowing things up. It makes complete sense to out-gun your enemies. Flaw in the plan is that now there are no enemies or whatsoever. I don't know how this 6th Gen thing will go (if it will), but honestly, I'm betting on diplomacy by then, instead of "my gun is bigger than yours".

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

Out of PAK-FA talk (VVS, give a decent designation ASAP, it's like talking about the F-22 as ATF and F-35 as JSF... If you don't, NATO will, and things can get ugly),that the F-22 could begin retiring (key-words here, COULD, not WILL, and BEGIN, rather than FINISH or anything like that) together with the Brazilian F-5M.

 

By then, we'll have some neat 4++ around, anyway :music_whistling:

[Downey Jr.]

I got your point, it's just that, well, that approach can lead to deep sh... in discussions involving military and politics.

 

Everyone's doing it, it's nothing new. Russia had the R-73, US shows them AIM-9X and so on. But we're now in a new age. For 50 years, both countries were waiting for the other to start blowing things up. It makes complete sense to out-gun your enemies. Flaw in the plan is that now there are no enemies or whatsoever. I don't know how this 6th Gen thing will go (if it will), but honestly, I'm betting on diplomacy by then, instead of "my gun is bigger than yours".

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

Out of PAK-FA talk (VVS, give a decent designation ASAP, it's like talking about the F-22 as ATF and F-35 as JSF... If you don't, NATO will, and things can get ugly),that the F-22 could begin retiring (key-words here, COULD, not WILL, and BEGIN, rather than FINISH or anything like that) together with the Brazilian F-5M.

 

By then, we'll have some neat 4++ around, anyway :music_whistling:

 

lol I wish I could share your optimism my friend, but diplomacy has never gone hand in hand with the military. and even though there is no war per say don't worry the military suits will find a way to come up with a reason.

 

And I'm pretty sure that 6th or new 5th gen fighter is on its way whether I like it or not

 

would be great if they stopped at the f-35 but when has research to development ever stopped for a second in the past? its one big money machine going around in circles...no real wars needed...just 'conflicts' or the threat of one.

[EtherealN]

Downey, I think it is very early to assume anything at all about the PAK-FA's capabilities compared to the F-22. The Raptor is the best there is right now, developed by a country that has been building stealth-feature aircraft since the late 70's.

 

...Russia is building it's first stealth aircraft now. Even if they can take advantage of "lessons learned" (they say that "people learn from their mistakes, but the wise learn from other people's mistakes") Russia has a lot of catching up to do - not only in stealth but also in missiles, radars, datalinks and so on. Newer does not always mean better, and don't listen too much to that Knopp guy (or whatever his name was). :P

[hitman]

you think the US is simply going to let Russia have the most advanced a-a fighter?

 

they are gonna blow a couple more billion on the next x-fighter program...endless cycle...but we all knew that...just saying as much as I love jets and planes...they will find a way to screw all taxpayers over as usual just to have the next best thing always.

 

where have you been? the pak fa is the infant 3rd cousin of the f22, the fact that the f22 (which first flew in the early 80's) is still more advanced than the pak fa. been there done that, got the t shirt.

[Downey Jr.]

where have you been? the pak fa is the infant 3rd cousin of the f22, the fact that the f22 (which first flew in the early 80's) is still more advanced than the pak fa. been there done that, got the t shirt.

 

you sure the fact that apparently you work at lockheed doesn't influence your opinion at all? lol

 

plus how do you guys know that the pak is so inferior to the raptor?

[hitman]

i wish the f23 won, hows that for influence. its inferior because 1. compare 20+ years flight time vs maybe 50 hours flight time, 2. the pak fa is in prototype phase, and 3. seriously?

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Problem in comparing the PAK-FA (and even F-22 and F-35) to other planes is that, as said, 1. it's still in-development, so nothing is concrete so far, and 2. Russian MoD likes to surprise us.

 

There is almost no reliable information on the PAK-FA so far, and even the information we have can change in the next years.

[Pilotasso]

Latest magazin AIR&COSMOS says there will be a light fighter program for replacing the Mig-29 as well. It is to be launched in 2012 and it will share alot of the design with the PAK-FA

[Lucas_From_Hell]

I guess the Su-35 and MiG-35 will be just like the planes mentioned before then.

 

Great planes, short life... :(

 

But is the program scheduled to start the design and etc. in 2012 or flight tests by then?

[EtherealN]

plus how do you guys know that the pak is so inferior to the raptor?

 

How do you know the PAK is in any way superior or even at parity with the F22?

 

We know quite a few things about the F22, though obviously a lot of details are unknown. But I think you'd be surprised to know how much can be figured out by those that have background in similar technologies. But on the other hand, almost nothing is known about the PAK-FA. We know what it looks like (and by gods I hope they re-design the aft section of the fuselage if theyr want to be "stealth"...), but we don't know how good they are at other stealth-related measures, such as calculating angles for the best profile, radar-absorbing paint, IR suppression and so on. We can extrapolate from previous russian aircraft, but that's it.

 

Indeed, the only "information" about it that we can be sure isn't "fake" is photographs of the actual airframe while in flight. But even then - it's a prototype. We don't know for sure if anything in the test airframes is going to be kept into production.

 

Add to this the significant gap in missile technology, and you have a problem with engagement ranges, tracking and so on.

 

Add inferior russian radar technology.

 

Add inferior russian datalinks.

 

Add... You get the point?

What we do know is that Sukhoi does have some serious cathing up to do, just like Vympel does and several other buerous.

 

What remains to be seen, aside from, well... anything at all about PAK-FA capabilities beyond it's "capability" to fly and be pleasant at the stick... is whether it becomes serviceable enough and cheap enough that it beats the F22 in the "real world" context of affordability - performance per dollar. I think it definitely has a very good shot at that as long as it's given some good missiles and radars. But "better than F22" in the sense of better per airframe... Sukhoi wish. :P

 

So... wait with talking about which is better until we at least have something other than a few video clips of the first prototype on it's first ever test flight, with a 35 degree turn as the most demanding maneuver... ;)

Edited March 10, 2010 by EtherealN

[GGTharos]

Try 'you get what you pay for' - it has held true for superfighters for a long time.

 

plus how do you guys know that the pak is so inferior to the raptor?

[Downey Jr.]

*sigh*...what's the point of restricting raptor sale to other countries when Boeing plans to offer a stealth version of the F-15 to the international market..lol 100 mil a piece too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15SE_Silent_Eagle

[sobek]

F-15SE!=F-22

 

You can't honestly believe that a plane that was retrofitted with some features to reduce it's radar signature will perform the same as one that was designed to be stealthy from the beginning.

[GGTharos]

You think it's as capable as an F-22? ... stealth is one thing, but there's a pretty huge difference in computing power and available ESM and datalink capability ... at minimum.

[mvsgas]

*sigh*...what's the point of restricting raptor sale to other countries when Boeing plans to offer a stealth version of the F-15 to the international market..lol 100 mil a piece too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15SE_Silent_Eagle

:noexpression:

Did you just compared the F-15SE proposal to a F-22? An aircraft that does not even exist yet and is more comparable to the F-18E/F super hornet in term of stealth features.

An aircraft that would still need to find buyers before anything. Congress would still have to approve the deal as well.

Did I get that right?...just ensuring I understood your post.