Mustang Take Off

[Cpt. TRIJJ]

I think if I could get abit of clarity on stick movement @ take-off, I might just get this bird in the air. I'm still awaiting arrival of my Track IR but I do have Thrustmaster Joystick, Thrustmaster Throttle Control, and Thrustmaster Rudder. The Joystick and Rudder not hooked up yet nor programmed. Will do that as soon as I get this matter settled.  @ 70mph, the Tutorial says let the stick go. It returns to slightly aft of neutral...is that ok or should it be dead-center of flight controls monitor? @ 100mph, it's suppose to start rising. It does but typically banks left and crashes. My timing is off, correct? Just keep holding right rudder? Tell me where/what is wrong here. Also, when in flight, is it constant inputs to maintain level flight?

 

[razo+r]

11 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

 @ 70mph, the Tutorial says let the stick go. It returns to slightly aft of neutral...is that ok or should it be dead-center of flight controls monitor?

If it's just slightly offset it shouldn't cause too much problems.

11 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

@ 100mph, it's suppose to start rising. It does but typically banks left and crashes. My timing is off, correct?

If it banks left and crashes then that means the aircraft is stalling. Either because you are too heavy and too slow or you pull too much on the stick. Let the aircraft accelerate a bit more and then slightly pull on the stick to get in the air, but don't pull too much. 

11 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Just keep holding right rudder?

For a start always keep the ball in the center. Apply as much right rudder on takeoff as needed to keep you straight.

11 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

 Also, when in flight, is it constant inputs to maintain level flight?

 

If you don't trim the aircraft you will have to do constant inputs. However, once the airspeed stabilizes and you've properly trimmed the aircraft, you can pretty much take your hands off the stick and it will fly straight.

[Skewgear]

5 hours ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

I think if I could get abit of clarity on stick movement @ take-off, I might just get this bird in the air. I'm still awaiting arrival of my Track IR but I do have Thrustmaster Joystick, Thrustmaster Throttle Control, and Thrustmaster Rudder. The Joystick and Rudder not hooked up yet nor programmed. Will do that as soon as I get this matter settled.  @ 70mph, the Tutorial says let the stick go. It returns to slightly aft of neutral...is that ok or should it be dead-center of flight controls monitor?

Doesn't matter. A little aft stick is necessary to get airborne anyway. When you're actually taking off you're focused outside the cockpit, not gazing at the stick!

5 hours ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

@ 100mph, it's suppose to start rising. It does but typically banks left and crashes. My timing is off, correct? Just keep holding right rudder? Tell me where/what is wrong here.

When you raise the nose, the gyroscopic forces from the prop will induce a swing to the left. You need to anticipate and counter this with appropriate right rudder input at the same time as you bring the nose up. Not a boot full but a gentle press and hold, varying the pressure as required to keep tracking straight down the runway. Takes some practice to master it.

5 hours ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Also, when in flight, is it constant inputs to maintain level flight?

Nah, that's what the trimmers are for. Don't forget to swap fuel tanks every 5-10 minutes and retrim as required, else you end up flying one wing low and wondering what's going on.

[Art-J]

Also, keep in mind that little red diamond thingy on Ctrl Entrer inputs screen does NOT correspond to position of your physical devices (joystick, pedals), but position of virtual stick and rudder in the cockpit, which means it can be off-center based on current airflow and trims settings.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

14 hours ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Just keep holding right rudder?

Yes, but you're suppose to respond to the input and what you're seeing, it's not like one can put some right pedal and just let it there the whole time, that's only for others so called "simulators". Here torque and all it's friends are modelled the way they should be, so you must interact to what you "see" going on, the problem is the wait until visual clues happens and usually by then it's late, that's why one's suppose to fly by the seat of your pants IRL but here there's no such a physical clue, there's no feeling. The better way I've found, if you can't find those tiny subtle visual clues, is to pedal on the rudders left-right constantly (it's also a tail wheel technique IRL BTW). It might seem pointless to pedal like you're biking but it makes the trick because in the left-right constant input you correct unconsciously the path and in the end take off and land in a quite controlled way without even knowing. If you manage to learn like that later on you won't need to constantly pedal left-right all the time once you've learned what to expect in each of the take off steps so you'll do it by heart without much thinking. Till then the constant "pedalling" is a good way to learn how to tackle tail draggers.

About the stick position, the problem is when you read the description it looks pretty straightforward, but once you're there it all happens way faster than it looks like. In the P-51 the tail wheel lock happens until stick is right in the centre, to unlock you have to push forward that centre (it's the exact opposite in Fw190 family), so even though it's fine and helpful to hold the stick backwards in the take off run you have to let it go before she goes airborne, you don't want to have any pitch up input at the moment she lifts off by herself because there's no speed at that exact moment and you'll stall. But it all happens quite fast so it's a progressive let go but faster than one thinks. If it goes left in that moment that probably means you're making throttle changes during the take off run. It's better to get to whatever setting you're confortable with (without heavy loads it's fine just 3000rpm 50", for instance) and let it there, if there're changes then bad things happens. Also, take care to use one notch nose down trim, it'll help you not getting airborne ahead of the right time.

[Cpt. TRIJJ]

I certainly can agree with the statement that it "all happens much quicker" than is laid out in the videos I've seen. I've resolved some issues (thru trial and error).  This info lets me know I am on the right track. Still not clear on stick movement, so I'll ask... to push forward with stick, plane will dive?  To make the plane rise, pull back?  What am I trimming to get nose down?

Thanks for the help.

[razo+r]

31 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

I certainly can agree with the statement that it "all happens much quicker" than is laid out in the videos I've seen. I've resolved some issues (thru trial and error).  This info lets me know I am on the right track. Still not clear on stick movement, so I'll ask... to push forward with stick, plane will dive?  To make the plane rise, pull back?  What am I trimming to get nose down?

Thanks for the help.

Pull the stick, aircraft pitches up. Push the stick, aircraft pitches down. 

For trimming, its usually labeled in which way it trims. Like trim nose down makes the nose go down / the plane pitches down. Trim nose up makes the nose go up / the aircraft pitches up. 

[Cpt. TRIJJ]

Am I trimming elevators, ailerons, flaps, or rudder? Or something else?

[Rainer_B.]

Nose up/down: Elevators

Wings left/right: Ailerons

[razo+r]

38 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Am I trimming elevators, ailerons, flaps, or rudder? Or something else?

Mostly elevator and rudder, and if needed ailerons. 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Am I trimming elevators, ailerons, flaps, or rudder? Or something else?

A notch in nose trim down helps you preventing to get airborne before you want it to happen, but will still go airborne quite easy, don't worry about that. When you're more confident of course you can take off without taking care of that but now it's probably causing you some problems.

Manual says also 5-6º right rudder trim IIRC, but pilots IRL say it's not for helping torque in take off run (you still have to use rudder anyway, trim doesn't help you with that) but once airborne and clean (flaps and gear up) with those 5-6º rudder trim will get your ball already mostly centred (no pun intended ) so you don't need to retrim that much while airborne and thinking-managing other stuff at the same time. In game people say 3º is better for aeroplane control. I usually forget to trim at all when I take off in P-51, but still it's fine once you know the bird.

 

Anyhow, what I mean is, yes, can be helpful but trim is not exactly your acutest problem while taking of, no.

 

With regards to stick, yes you should leave it slowly but constantly and before reaching 100mph indicated your stick must be already centred if you don't want to lift off before intended. That's why one notch nose down trim is helpful there, still she'll lift off without problem, one notch won't prevent you from going airborne. But P-51 isn't the worst in that, other warbirds in DCS want not only back stick pressure but perhaps left stick either (and we aren't talking crosswind here… ), and it must either be left to neutral slowly but that's while in take off run so you also don't stop pedalling to keep torque controlled and watch your instruments, anemometer, tachometer, manifold pressure but you have to keep your eyes outside at the same time… That's why it's actually pretty straightforward but way quicker than it looks like, you're so bogged down at that moment to pay attention to so many details it goes without noticing and you're already either airborne or a ball of fire. But believe me, it's doable, you learn even though at first looks like you don't, and in the end you'll master it before you know it.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar
typo

[=475FG= Dawger]

The most common hurdle for new pilots to overcome is over controlling. Doing too much creates problems.

The easiest way to overcome this in DCS is to start by doing nothing. Since airframes and lives are free, takeoff by slowly advancing the throttle but don’t touch any other controls. Observe what the aircraft does. Add in one control axis, the rudder. Practice using just enough rudder to keep it straight.

Next add aileron to rudder and practice keeping the wings level while going straight. 
 

Lastly, use all three axis and you will be successfully airborne.

You will quickly learn less is more 

[Cpt. TRIJJ]

U guys just don't know how much help u've given me. I am very thankful. I can now (with a good bit of certainty) taxi and take-off. Landing though, not so hot. Will be April 6th b4 my Track IR gets here.(I can't see the Instrument Panel too well). That'll help, right? If u don't mind... 1) what is difference from Camera Zoom and just Zoom? Neither worked for me inside or out. I programmed it to the left rotator on my TWCS Throttle. It shows movement in DCS Control but didn't zoom anywhere. 2) why don't keyboard assignments show up in DCS Control. The whole column says "no commands available here." 3) the TFRP Pedals do great on the ground but in the air, it messes with my T1600M FCS Joystick. The reverse is true for the Joystick on the ground and the Pedals in the air.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

16 minutes ago, Cpt. TRIJJ said:

Landing though, not so hot.

If you've used the technique I told you (constant pedalling, dunno the name in English if there's one for that bush piloting technique) keep using it while landing. Don't know what exactly you might be struggling with while landing, but pedalling as a base for control is quite nice for tail draggers landings.

Of course a TrackIR or any other visual control device helps, now with VR there's even a whole new level for that, but back in the day where the best we had was stick hat for controlling views the TrackIR was a total blast, like being no more stuck with your head in the cockpit looking anywhere with your own head. You'll see how useful such a device is, even in this VR era.

 

Can't recall all the controls in game and their names, but there're different ones for zooming. The ones I usually use (setted in my stick BTW) are "slow zoom in" and out, they're usually at te very bottom of the controls' list for obvious reasons. They work either in cockpit and in external view. Don't know what problem are you having, but maybe you're using a different one meant for other things.

Keyboard controls are usually there by default. If they don't show up you might need to reset your controls to get them back. Then you can reload your devices profiles so you don't have to set everything again one by one. It's load profile upper right corner, watch you're loading the profile for the module and control you need and not a different module since there you have a explorer and it can be pointed to any folder in saved games, not necessarily the one you're looking for. P-51 has TWO different controls folders for every variant, D-25 and D-30, you can set one of them (making sure you're in that variant in game if you're setting controls in cockpit) and copy the result folder to the other variant, it's the same. You can even copy that folder to TF-51 and it'll also work despite some controls aren't existing in TF.

Check in your controls, axis controls, you have no duplicated axis in different devices, by default it's usual that happens.