50 BMG update similar to US warbirds

[tms0018]

Has there been any thought into updating the F-86's 50 BMG ammunition to include API and API tracers like how the US Warbirds 50's were updated? Because right now it really seems like we are just using ball ammo which is not very effective against other aircraft when compared to armor piercing incendiary rounds. Which is what they would have had in Korea.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Probably not. ED has yet to address anything pertaining to the F-86's gunnery for years. They aren't interested in updating it, at all. Our community managers have done what they can, but F-86 is basically done, barring serious errors that might arise with future patches. It's not even an after thought at this point.

It's why I'm not going to be purchasing any of ED's offerings in this era, anymore.

[tms0018]

On 3/13/2023 at 12:55 AM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Probably not. ED has yet to address anything pertaining to the F-86's gunnery for years. They aren't interested in updating it, at all. Our community managers have done what they can, but F-86 is basically done, barring serious errors that might arise with future patches. It's not even an after thought at this point.

It's why I'm not going to be purchasing any of ED's offerings in this era, anymore.

That is a very sad statement, but you are probably right. It won't get updated anytime soon.

 

The only thing I can think of is if they finally update the damage model for jets like they did with the Warbirds, or we get a Korea Map. Which would likely lead to an update of the F-86 and Mig-15, kinda like what we saw with the Blackshark. Where they would probably try to rerelease the Sabre as "Sabre II".

[Kevin509]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:58 PM, tms0018 said:

That is a very sad statement, but you are probably right. It won't get updated anytime soon.

 

The only thing I can think of is if they finally update the damage model for jets like they did with the Warbirds, or we get a Korea Map. Which would likely lead to an update of the F-86 and Mig-15, kinda like what we saw with the Blackshark. Where they would probably try to rerelease the Sabre as "Sabre II".

 

I completely understand that this is a niche within a niche in that the active player base for the F86 is probably a very small subset of DCS as a whole, and ED is a small team with limited manpower and resources and they need to dedicate the majority of those resources to things that generate profit, ie new product. 

BUT - the fact remains that inaccurate gun ballistics/gunsight is pretty much a game breaking bug on a gunfighter aircraft and would never be tolerated by the community or the ED Devs on one of their 'flagship' products like the F16/18 etc. 

Additionally, the community has done the work and produced this .lua file mod which as far as I can tell completely fixes every issue I have with the F86's gun ballistics without being unrealistic or over performing: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3301685/

However, this of course breaks IC so can't be used online.  While I make no claims to be an expert in this, it seems to me that it would take maybe one afternoon for one dev at Eagle Dynamics to have a look at this existing user mod, confirm that the changes meet their quality standards or whatever, and then push it out with the next patch. I have no doubt the community would be grateful and it seems like such an easy win.

[71st_AH Rob]

And the fix only takes five minutes, it's not like there is months of research and coding. Five minutes.  Six lines if code and only a couple of characters on each line.

[Flappie]

I want to be sure I understand what you guys ask for before reaching devs.

Is this what you want for the Sabre?

[Kevin509]

37 minutes ago, Flappie said:

I want to be sure I understand what you guys ask for before reaching devs.

Is this what you want for the Sabre?

I don't want to hijack OP's thread because I think that is sort of what OP was asking; but if the devs are going to take a look at the sabre it's really the actual ballistic performance of the rounds that have been the community issue for a long time. The mod file I linked above changes the performance of the rounds so they pass through the gunsight rather than beneath it, which is the critical improvement. I believe it also substitutes the ammo type for API/APIT but it doesn't give any more options in the drop-down you show. 

Appreciate the attention to this Flappie!

[pgn]

I think this is the relevant thread in the bugs section.

 

[tms0018]

On 3/24/2023 at 4:21 PM, Kevin509 said:

 

I completely understand that this is a niche within a niche in that the active player base for the F86 is probably a very small subset of DCS as a whole, and ED is a small team with limited manpower and resources and they need to dedicate the majority of those resources to things that generate profit, ie new product. 

BUT - the fact remains that inaccurate gun ballistics/gunsight is pretty much a game breaking bug on a gunfighter aircraft and would never be tolerated by the community or the ED Devs on one of their 'flagship' products like the F16/18 etc. 

Additionally, the community has done the work and produced this .lua file mod which as far as I can tell completely fixes every issue I have with the F86's gun ballistics without being unrealistic or over performing: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3301685/

However, this of course breaks IC so can't be used online.  While I make no claims to be an expert in this, it seems to me that it would take maybe one afternoon for one dev at Eagle Dynamics to have a look at this existing user mod, confirm that the changes meet their quality standards or whatever, and then push it out with the next patch. I have no doubt the community would be grateful and it seems like such an easy win.

'Thank you for the mod, I only play single player, that might change in the future, but as of right now something to fix the gunnery, even a bit, is helpful!

[tms0018]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:35 AM, Flappie said:

I want to be sure I understand what you guys ask for before reaching devs.

Is this what you want for the Sabre?

Hey Flappie,

So, to be specific I was wondering if there were ever any plans to update the Sabres 50 cals to accurately match the kinds of rounds that would have been used historically. Right now, its just labeled as ammo, without any specifics if its ball, armor piercing, armor piercing incendiary, etc. This was similar to how the US warbirds were set up until they received the update to allow for specific historically accurate loadouts with different ammo types. 

 

Right now, it seems like the Sabre just shoots ball ammo which are just regular bullets and honestly not very effective against other aircraft. Which is why shooting at other planes can sometime seem like they are just bullet sponges and just absorb all the rounds you shoot at it without too much of an issue. But in real life they used armor piercing incendiary rounds, among other loadouts, which were much more effective. So, I was hoping they could be modeled in game. Which would be similar to the update the US warbirds got from ED a little while back. 

 

[Flappie]

20 hours ago, tms0018 said:

Right now, it seems like the Sabre just shoots ball ammo which are just regular bullets and honestly not very effective against other aircraft. Which is why shooting at other planes can sometime seem like they are just bullet sponges and just absorb all the rounds you shoot at it without too much of an issue. But in real life they used armor piercing incendiary rounds, among other loadouts, which were much more effective. So, I was hoping they could be modeled in game. Which would be similar to the update the US warbirds got from ED a little while back.

From F-86.lua:

Quote

    tbl.category = CAT_GUN_MOUNT
    tbl.name      = "m3_browning"
    tbl.supply      =
    {
        shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"},
        mixes  = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, --  
        count  = 300,

 

Do you have a document stating what belt compositions were used with the Sabre?

That would help.

[71st_AH Rob]

This is a very old and opaque issue.  When I get home from work I will try to find the appropriate posts.

I believe that the belt composition was corrected five or six years ago, the problem is incorrect muzzle velocity.  

This is a problem that is systemic to ED and I am heartened to see they are taking steps to ensure that it doesn't happen to future modules.

Currently there are two M20 rnds, one for WWII and one for the Sabre. The one for the Sabre has a lower muzzle velocity than the WWII rnd. 

Similarly we have the GAR-8 and AIM-9B, identical Irl, different in DCS. They are the same missile but there was a change in nomenclature dictated by the Pentagon.  Why do we have two different missiles? 

[tms0018]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:48 PM, Flappie said:

From F-86.lua:

 

Do you have a document stating what belt compositions were used with the Sabre?

That would help.

Hey Flappie thanks for showing the lua files. Glad they put API/APIT rounds for the guns. It must be some other reason it seems like they are less effective than say the Mustangs 50's when firing at the same target. Maybe it's just my accuracy between the two modules or some other setting between the guns? 

 

And I do not have any historical documents stating what belt compositions were used with the Sabre? But I will try and do some research for you! 

[schurem]

Maybe me, but I reflew the old Georgia intercept instant action to see if the radar gunsight fix is real, and it seemed hella deadly. One short burst put the fokker down, where it used to take almost all of the ammo to down it.

[Squiffy]

That makes me curious. I also saw a radar gunsight update in Big Newy's "newsletter" recently. I am tempted to try it but I don't want to nuke my finely tuned muzzle velocity mods in my old Beta module I've been hanging on to for so very long. The "Sputnik climb, scaredy cat" tactics of the AI are another reason why I don't update.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Squiffy