A/A refueling for trainees

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Auto Rudder is literally for players who don’t have rudder controls. It’s to make up for hardware deficiency not as an aid. 

So it should be fine if AAR assist is added to help with hardware deficiencies, I guess the discussion is over.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You just provided a link to your own post. That’s hilarious. And you’re not making any sense. Watching your plane fly by itself or magically fill up has zero training value. 

Yes because my post contained what you're looking for, an explanation on how assists aid in learning, including the plane flying itself.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Right. You can practice AAR without your plane magically filling itself up or flying itself. So why have this cheat? That’s not helping you practice, it’s just a shortcut. 

 

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

You can practice AAR with an assist. It's obvious that you can practice without, but that doesn't matter.

Flying missions with unlimited fuel is totally different and also can't be used to learn AAR.

All your answers are in the thread.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Niether does selecting unlimited fuel. So no new features are needed.

Unlimited fuel doesn't help train AAR assist. Since you're fixated on training people for some reason you either have to be against unlimited fuel or you can choose to not care how people train in which case AAR assists are fine. So pick one, it doesn't matter which, but it seems like you don't have an argument against AAR assist.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s funny you say this. Yes a race could be an hour or even longer, requiring work, focus and concentration the entire time. AAR just takes a few minutes. 

Yet AAR in DCS is harder, so it seems like time doesn't matter.

[draconus]

How about this proven method? ding-ding-ding

Edited May 5, 2023 by draconus

[JCTherik]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

OK, but if for some reason an assist being a real world assist matters let's focus on the non real world ones like racing lines, auto clutch, friction force, etc. Why are you ignoring these?

Notice what kinds of assists we're talking about here.

Clutch, racing lines, traction control, ABS...

 

An analogy of those in AAR would be something along the lines of overlays that tell you which way to go, or curve adjustments to make the response smoother.

 

That's very different from AAR autopilot.

One thing you won't ever find in any semi-serious or competitive driving sim is an assist that will drive through a difficult section of the track for you, while you go AFK, which would be the driving sim equivalent of AAR autopilot.

You may have driving sim assists that improve the responsiveness of the car, make it less slippery, more smooth, shift better, but there aren't any assists that steer for you, let alone fully take over.

I'm also yet to see a car racing assist that makes the road wider for you.

 

Some assists may be more acceptable than others, and I think the problem is to a large degree about the kind of assists that you're asking for, for which an equivalent just straight up doesn't exist in racing sims.

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Notice what kinds of assists we're talking about here.

This misses the point entirely. There isn't a Game Assist Association that sets laws for what kind of assists are legal or not. I'm not posting racing game assist because they have to be used as a template for flight sims. I'm posting assists from multiplayer games because someone apparently thought variable difficulty in multiplayer was unheard of.

Also, let's circle back to what was ignored here, the aim assist in the other game. It's basically autopilot for aiming. So shouldn't that justify autopilot assists in flight sims.

Actually, let's just look at flight sims themselves. DCS has autorudder, takeoff assist, options to disable difficult penalties for flying aircraft past their limits, options to disable damage, and autopilots beyond the native autopilots found in aircraft. There are also trim resets, autothrottles, and autostart/shutdown. Automation is nothing new.

2 hours ago, JCTherik said:

One thing you won't ever find in any semi-serious or competitive driving sim is an assist that will drive through a difficult section of the track for you, while you go AFK, which would be the driving sim equivalent of AAR autopilot.

It was called B-Spec in Gran Turismo.

2 hours ago, JCTherik said:

I'm also yet to see a car racing assist that makes the road wider for you.

I can't really see why this is relevant at all. I never saw a flight sim that let you so easily switch between high fidelity aircraft before DCS, yet here DCS is going on over 10 years. Progress happens.

2 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Some assists may be more acceptable than others, and I think the problem is to a large degree about the kind of assists that you're asking for, for which an equivalent just straight up doesn't exist in racing sims.

The only assists that aren't acceptable are ones that detract from people's experience or take things away from DCS. While I haven't specifically requested anything I've made sure to only suggest things that won't adversely affect DCS.

If you asked me what I think the best assist is, it's the more forgiving refueling box. It would allow inexperienced players to perform all the steps related to manual AAR while also making it much harder for them to fail, and it would have absolutely no effect on players that choose not to use it since it would be a personal option and because it changes nothing about their game.

Some people may not like that it's there even if it doesn't affect them, but there isn't really anything that can be done about that. I've seen some people make requests to take away some sim aspects from DCS, but that's clearly not the direction DCS is intended to go. There isn't much to do in these cases but ignore the suggestions. Just because they don't like something isn't grounds to keep that thing out of the sim.

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, Exorcet said:

someone apparently thought variable difficulty in multiplayer was unheard of

It's not their fault that they never heard of Golf. But yes, variable difficulty in ranked multiplayer is standard even in real world recreational sports. In Golf, that 'cheat' is called 'handicap'. 

But this threat unfortunately has boiled down to 'haters gonna hate', with even me contributing some unkind comments which (although of course 10'000% correct and on point  ) did not further the issue. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by cfrag

[Exorcet]

7 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's not their fault that they never heard of Golf. But yes, variable difficulty in ranked multiplayer is standard even in real world recreational sports. In Golf, that 'cheat' is called 'handicap'. 

Yes, and in the racing world it's reward weight.

7 minutes ago, cfrag said:

But this threat unfortunately has boiled down to 'haters gonna hate', with even me contributing some unkind comments which (although of course 10'000% correct and on point  ) did not further the issue. 

 

As tends to be the case sadly.

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

So it should be fine if AAR assist is added to help with hardware deficiencies

Auto Rudder is there to make up for a lack of this control, anyone can AAR despite their controller scheme if they practice. There are players who can do this with game pads and keyboards. 

8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Unlimited fuel doesn't help train AAR assist.

The wording of this sentence doesn’t make sense. The point was that I think you could still practice attempts at AAR while playing with unlimited fuel. 

 

32 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There isn't a Game Assist Association that sets laws for what kind of assists are legal or not.

Judging by the nature of these discussions, DCS players would want Easy Auto AAR to be a mission setting in MP   

 

8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Yet AAR in DCS is harder, so it seems like time doesn't matter.

AAR in DCS has a finite difficulty. Once you master it the task doesn’t get harder. There’s no upper limit for how challenging racing can be. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by SharpeXB

[JCTherik]

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

the aim assist in the other game. It's basically autopilot for aiming.

Well, no, aim assist adjusts your aim slightly to compensate for controller play.

Again, that's more along the lines of having custom curves. Aim assist doesn't automatically aim, walk and shoot while you walk away to make a tea.

It's not an autopilot for aiming, it's more like an SAS for aiming.

 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

DCS has autorudder, takeoff assist, options to disable difficult penalties for flying aircraft past their limits

And I'm not particularly happy about those.

But in any case, the existence of one assist doesn't justify the existence of two assists, if anything, i'd say it's the opposite. Also, note that those assists, startup/rudder/takeoff may be used by people who struggle to get the airplane off the ground, because without ever getting into the air, you miss the main point the DCS. Most of the gameplay is only accessible once you get into the air, but there's no hidden gameplay content that would require AAR to access, it's just fuel.

 

Some airplanes have trim resets, some don't, some have autothrottle, some don't. I'm not aware of any of those being accessible outside of what the airplane can already do IRL.

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It was called B-Spec in Gran Turismo.

I wasn't aware of that, but after some reading, this looks like it puts you in a position of a manager that's instructing a driver. Doesn't seem like the point of this is to skip a difficult section of a track.

 

18 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

I'm also yet to see a car racing assist that makes the road wider for you.

I can't really see why this is relevant at all.

I meant that as a parallel to a bigger AAR box.

 

20 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Progress happens

Progress towards realism though, not away from it.

It seems like real pilots usually manage to get refueled pretty quickly, but they also train general flying much more. If ED updates refueling so that it's more realistic and it turns out to be easier that way, it will be a win for everybody, but AAR autopilot is not a realistic way to achieve that, that is no progress at all, it's a step towards ace combat.

25 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I've made sure to only suggest things that won't adversely affect DCS.

 

But this will adversely affect DCS. You refuse to accept what we're saying here, there are plenty of people who will be negatively affected by this if this is available in multiplayer.

 

 

I do formations a bit, and just generally fly around as well as I can. I usually don't fly combat, and most people would wipe the floor with me in both BVR and BFM.

Other people who fly combat every day, and their practice involve searching things on radar screens and drawing perfect circles in the sky, those people are going to be better at dogfighting.

Unless you invest your time and effort into both, you shouldn't get the reward for both.

So, let me play a little devil's advocate here.

I do find dogfights kinda difficult, but if there are autopilots for AAR freely given to people, well, I'm just going to ask for an autopilot for dogfighting, then I'm gonna go make myself a coffee, and when I come back and my plane is sitting in the bandit's 6 low, i'm just gonna press the trigger.

Why should I have to spend days or months practicing dogfights? Why can't I just get an autopilot assist for that?

 

...........

Can you see how that would degrade, if not outright invalidate all of the efforts of the thousands of players that spent months learning dogfights?

 

You may think that AAR doesn't affect anything in multiplayer, but it does. If I can find and rejoin with a tanker faster, plug quickly, stay in and fly away without too much effort, I can refuel faster and more often, which gives me an advantage.

Other players may have spent the same amount of training on fiddling with their radar, and they get really good at it, and that gives them an advantage.

If you now take my advantage and give it freely to everyone else, you're disrespecting all the effort that I've put into it, you're skewing the playing field, and you're removing pretty much the only real reward that a player in DCS has for learning precision flying.

[JCTherik]

39 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's not their fault that they never heard of Golf. But yes, variable difficulty in ranked multiplayer is standard even in real world recreational sports. In Golf, that 'cheat' is called 'handicap'. 

That is there to allow skilled players to have a close game with less skilled players, it's a very different thing.

As I said before, if I as a low-skill combat player go in a PVP server against high-skill combat players, the only trump card I have there is that I can refuel quickly, thus I can use throttle more generously. I'm still probably going to lose, but if you give everybody access to fuel, you're putting the handicap on the wrong player.

So, my point still stands, since golf doesn't use variable difficulty to create unfair playing field, but really quite the opposite.

[JCTherik]

40 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

49 minutes ago, cfrag said:

But this threat unfortunately has boiled down to 'haters gonna hate', with even me contributing some unkind comments which (although of course 10'000% correct and on point  ) did not further the issue. 

 

As tends to be the case sadly.

Sorry, but that's a wee bit unfair.

I took time to put together a list of many possible assists, with varying functions and varying degrees of acceptability.

It's really not my fault that you guys keep focusing on the most outrageous forms of those assists and won't give an inch or even acknowledge that there could be problems and that there are objections to those assists from other players.

 

Feel free to come up with different forms of assists, or a way to ensure that the assists stay in single-player only.

 

 

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are players who can do this with game pads and keyboards. 

This^

I've lost in dogfights against keyboard players who have less in-game time than me, and then I've seen the same guy use that same keyboard to refuel his plane.

The excuse of "AAR is impossible" is only really impossible for people who "don't have time to practice it", because every time they log into DCS they'd rather fly combat.

It's about priorities and willingness, there's nothing impossible about it.

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

You may think that AAR doesn't affect anything in multiplayer, but it does. If I can find and rejoin with a tanker faster, plug quickly, stay in and fly away without too much effort, I can refuel faster and more often, which gives me an advantage.

This

The effect of Easy AAR on mp would be akin to giving players unlimited fuel (you’ll notice few or any servers have this enabled). MP is not reality, the tankers are much closer to the action as are the flight distances from bases etc. people could run around on burners the whole time and just hockey stop their planes at the tankers and gas up. DCS already suffers from Ace Combat War Thunder style online as it is with players blasting off from the taxiways etc, so this would make it even crazier. 
Seeing from the earlier poll that the majority here are against Easy AAR it would certainly end up as a mp setting. 

[Exorcet]

27 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Can you see how that would degrade, if not outright invalidate all of the efforts of the thousands of players that spent months learning dogfights?

I understood your stance here the first time it was brought up. However DCS isn't about bragging points. I don't care how hard I have to work in relation to anyone else, I did the work because I wanted to, not because I wanted to score "points".

 

If anything it's good that others can replicate my skill for little effort, that way if I'm flying online I can count on people at least matching my skill, which is more interesting than flying with or against novices all the time.

27 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

You may think that AAR doesn't affect anything in multiplayer, but it does. If I can find and rejoin with a tanker faster, plug quickly, stay in and fly away without too much effort, I can refuel faster and more often, which gives me an advantage.

Assuming there is even a tanker, which may not be the case. Assuming that distance is enough for refueling to matter which may not be the case. Also my stance isn't that AAR doesn't affect anything, it's that having an AAR assist doesn't detract from DCS. Increasing the AAR success rate means a player that doesn't know how to AAR can participate in a long range mission. That's a change, but nothing negative comes from it.

27 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Other players may have spent the same amount of training on fiddling with their radar, and they get really good at it, and that gives them an advantage.

If you now take my advantage and give it freely to everyone else, you're disrespecting all the effort that I've put into it, you're skewing the playing field, and you're removing pretty much the only real reward that a player in DCS has for learning precision flying.

Like I said, I've put time and effort into things in DCS too. The idea that the value of my time was dependent on other people in anyway has never crossed my mind. Not a single time. Imagine if artists took your position. No one would have bothered panting anything after the camera was invented.

I can't say that how you feel is wrong, it is what it is, but if I had to choose between AAR assist and policing the "purity" of DCS player skill, AAR assist is about a million times more valuable in my opinion. And I don't think you shouldn't have your pure curated skill zone, but there are existing solutions for that. Make your own server for instance.

[JCTherik]

9 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I understood your stance here the first time it was brought up. However DCS isn't about bragging points. I don't care how hard I have to work in relation to anyone else, I did the work because I wanted to, not because I wanted to score "points".

 

If anything it's good that others can replicate my skill for little effort, that way if I'm flying online I can count on people at least matching my skill, which is more interesting than flying with or against novices all the time.

 

Same for me, and I genuinely want more players to learn AAR, but I also think that if there's no reward, most people just wouldn't ever bother.

 

Which is exactly why I'm in principle not opposed to any training crutch or assists that would make people learn faster, I'm only opposed to assists which:

A. Would instantly allow virtually everyone to refuel without much training, and

B. Are likely to end up permanently enabled in multiplayer.

 

Anything else I don't have much of a problem with.

[GGTharos]

If you're doing a longer flight or something a bit more realistic that requires performance, AAR skill becomes important - it's not only being able to do it, but being able to do it smoothly and quickly.   If you've got 4 planes that need to sip gas, you might be looking at 2-4 minutes on the boom each, maybe 5 depending on the aircraft and how much fuel it needs to take (IIRC boom transfer in DCS is ~2500lbs/min).   You can easily do the math on that and see how it affects timings for various phases of a flight.

 

In that respect, some form of assist for the less skilled players is practical.

On the other hand ... you don't see a lot of missions flown in this manner.

Edited May 5, 2023 by GGTharos

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, draconus said:

How about this proven method? ding-ding-ding

 

The correct answer.