quick question requires a quick answer: x52 pro collective invert or no invert?

[ARM505]

Neither pulling nor pushing a fixed wing style of throttle is realistic, so do what you want - the argument that 'pulling' is more 'authentic' is ridiculous when you're moving your hand fore and aft, as opposed to the correct upwards and downwards (and therefore intuitive) motion.

[rapid]

Yes I shall be doing what i want. I posted to get some feeb back and a general consesus to everyone else was doing.

[glottis]

I think pushing is actually more authentic because of the following jumble of facts:

1. In a jet, you push in the direction of throttle (aft -> fore) to increase acceleration along that axis.

2. In a helicopter, you pull collective up because that is also along the axis of acceleration (down -> up).

3. If you pitch down, and pull the collective you are still moving it from backwards to forwards, and therefore increasing movement speed along that axis.

 

Obviously having the x52 throttle on your desk confuses things - as when you're in hover your throttle will not physically move up/down... So, we accept nothing will work perfectly in that situation and focus on when you're pitched forward/back - therefore, pushing throttle forward pulls collective up and makes you go faster in the forward direction.

[congo]

Leave it to push but turn the throttle 180 degrees

[Redeye26]

If i owned a helicopter throttle then i would pull , as i own a jet throttle ,then i'm gonna push . And i fly in full sim mode and it feels as, authentic as is possible ,sat at a machine playing a game/sim. ;)

Edited February 11, 2009 by Redeye26

[CE_Mikemonster]

Neither pulling nor pushing a fixed wing style of throttle is realistic, so do what you want - the argument that 'pulling' is more 'authentic' is ridiculous when you're moving your hand fore and aft, as opposed to the correct upwards and downwards (and therefore intuitive) motion.

 

+1

 

Ruprecht, to resort to snobbery by implying that people who push to increase engine power should stick to Arcade Mode is ridiculous.

 

I'm taking it you haven't mapped ANY controls on your Hotas that are different to RL, and instead use the clickable cockpit (which in itself is not realistic, as it is in fact more difficult than in RL).

[Redeye26]

Ditto at above

[einar-st]

+1 inverted

 

Took several flights before I got used to it. Switched because I personally feel that it's a nudge more authentic. But I completely understand those who say it doesn't matter because if the horizontal vs vertical position of the throttlestick/collective.

[EtherealN]

Question for ruprecht: have you arranged for yourself a rig that allows you to have your stick between your thighs? Seeing as that is where the actual stick is and it's a simple enough thing to rig up.

 

(I've actually thought about doing that myself, but not much point aiming for that kind of stuff when using a Saitek Cyborg sans HOTAS.)

 

And whichever way you want to seek twisting it, your rethoric earlier was a classic example of how to frame a derogatory argument while retaining suitable deniability - actually a technique quite a few people have in some university courses. It is rather practical to issue a scathing put-down without having to take the flak for one's attitude. ;)

[Tigrom]

Mine isn't inverted.

 

On a desk, when you can either push it forwards or pull it back I don't think it really matters. I'm used to push for power, so I do that. In a real helicopter, it makes more sense... pull up on the collective and you go up.

[ruprecht]

Question for ruprecht: have you arranged for yourself a rig that allows you to have your stick between your thighs? Seeing as that is where the actual stick is and it's a simple enough thing to rig up.

 

Actually I am in the process of doing so. But I suspect you weren't asking merely for information right? More to make some point that I too am compromising on authenticity? I'm not going to repeat my comments as it seems people don't actually read them, more skim them and react to their liberal interpretation of what I wrote.

 

And whichever way you want to seek twisting it, your rethoric earlier was a classic example of how to frame a derogatory argument while retaining suitable deniability - actually a technique quite a few people have in some university courses. It is rather practical to issue a scathing put-down without having to take the flak for one's attitude. ;)

 

The world is full of amateur academics. Bring on the flames, I won't apologise for my opinion.

 

Ruprecht, to resort to snobbery by implying that people who push to increase engine power should stick to Arcade Mode is ridiculous. I'm taking it you haven't mapped ANY controls on your Hotas that are different to RL, and instead use the clickable cockpit (which in itself is not realistic, as it is in fact more difficult than in RL).

 

Good grief, you people will read the most ridiculous things into the simplest of statements. What nonsense. And actually I have tried to get my HOTAS setup as close to reality as possible given the limitation of the hardware I am forced to use. So yes, as far as is possible given the X52's layout, I have. But again, you weren't really asking for information were you?

 

So far nobody (except Glottis) has actually disagreed with my contention that pulling for power is slightly more authentic than pushing. If anybody wants to do so, I'll happily debate that. If people want to persist with the ad hominem, really I couldn't care less. I've given the OP my opinion, and the rest is just OT noise.

Edited February 12, 2009 by ruprecht

[CE_Mikemonster]

I think we can all disagree that it's 'slightly more authentic' than pushing, as most people have said it is neither more nor less authentic.

 

Is a Toyota Pickup or a Fiat Panda more suited to landing on the moon?

 

It's the same futile argument seeing as a throttle is not a collective. I think use it however you want, and if you do feel it's more realistic i'm glad that it helps you feel immersed.

 

 

I don't mind your opinion, but you repeated it, apparently in response to CyBerkut mentioning he pushed the throttle.

 

You could have edited your original post but you didn't. The only reason I can think that you'd do this (with an insult attached) is to make yourself feel superior.

 

Lobo_63 said the same comment as you but used humour rather than his ego, and this is why you've got into hot water.

[EtherealN]

Actually, as you may have noticed the thought has struck me to do it myself but it isn't much point with the stick I have. If you have some pointers on it I am very much interested in hearing it.

 

Actually I am in the process of doing so. But I suspect you weren't asking merely for information right? More to make some point that I too am compromising on authenticity?

[ruprecht]

Sure, I should have included a winky with my post, then I wouldn't have got into "hot water".

 

I see a lot of people getting defensive about the way they choose to play, and lashing out at their interpretation of what I said, rather than at what I actually said. read post 15 again.

 

If I came across all superior, then you interpreted it wrong or perhaps I could have written it more clearly. I did not mean to be that way. I simply have an opinion about what is more realistic (note: not the black and white "realistic" that posters above have tried to attribute to me, but the shades of grey "more realistic") than something else. That is an educated, experienced opinion.

 

Like it or not, and without any intention of bringing ego or superiority into it, the vast majority of people on this forum have absolutely no experience of RL helo flight. So they are absolutely unqualified to judge what is "realistic" and what is not, because they have not experienced realism. Some people on the forum, myself included, actually do have RL helo experience. Of course the peanut gallery will chime in now and call me elitist for stating that, but it is relevant to the discussion and I make no apologies for my experience.

 

I know that pulling for power - even when the HOTAS is set up jet style - is slightly more authentic than pushing, because I have both simulated and real live experience to compare it to. I have no agenda to push. As I have stated, I don't give a toss which people choose to do. I am simply making the point that in my experienced opinion, one is closer than the other. If people choose to interpret that as elitism, so be it. If people want to engage their brains and put their defensiveness aside, even better. If people want to map their pedals to collective and use the ministick for yaw control, I have no opinion on it one way or another. I am, as I have now said many times, simply stating what I believe in my experienced opinion to be a fact that one way is more authentic than the other. Do with that information what you will and don't put criticism, elitism or snobbery into my words when there is none.

 

Peace out

[EtherealN]

Oh, and a quick note ruprecht on how I know the rethorical value of that specific tactic: I've got a past in politics and have used that trick myself to good effect. ;)

[CE_Mikemonster]

I have a cockpit and it never feels like the real thing (which I have done). What matters to me is what is closest possible, given the limitations of my hardware and software, to the real thing.

 

I honestly don't care how people choose to play. If you want to push for power, knock yourself out. But don't try and say that it is just as realistic or more realistic than pulling. Man up and admit that you are making a decision to sacrifice a little bit of authenticity in exchange for playability.

 

Labels, arcade mode, invulnerability, unlimited ammo, simplified flight model, and yes, pushing for power, are all decisions we make in the interests of playability and if you choose to use them, all power to you. If that's how you roll, hey man it's your money.

 

The original question was "should I". That was an invitation for personal opinion. This is mine. Yours is different. If you're feeling insecure because you couldn't "retrain your brains" from flying jet sims, don't try to make yourself feel better by invoking the term "elitist". I am simply stating a fact that on a sliding scale of grey, pulling for power is closer to authenticity than pushing. If authenticity is your thing, there's your answer. If not, cool, whatever.

 

Give yourself a hug, Ego

[ruprecht]

If you have some pointers on it I am very much interested in hearing it.

 

My worklog on the collective/cyclic mod is here:

 

http://pitblog.radsy.com/archives/00000147.htm

http://pitblog.radsy.com/archives/00000148.htm

http://pitblog.radsy.com/archives/00000149.htm

 

and I'll try to keep it up to date as I do the work. At the moment I'm having too much fun flying BS and posting on the forum ;) to do much work on it.

 

* disclaimer: the above winky was intended to highlight irony and to keep me out of hot water ;)

 

* disclaimer 2: so was that one

[ruprecht]

Give yourself a hug, Ego

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Having trouble actually making a valid point?

[Shrubbo]

darn its a good thing i didn't ask if one should spit or swallow :cry:. .......:thumbup:

 

I nearly ejected a popular soft drink out my nose when I read that:megalol:

 

BTW I "invert", I don't think it was for any other reason that it made more sense to me that way. I never considered it power else I would have probably got things confused. Collective to me has just always been pull. So up or towards the pulling action stays the same... thus invert was the go for me.

[CE_Mikemonster]

Sure, push for power, turn on arcade mode, use labels, whatever. You paid your money, you play it your way.

 

'An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.'

 

 

You are discrediting CyBerkut's point by implying that he plays in Arcade Mode.

[ARM505]

Here's another sim that used 'pull for power' :D

 

 

I award you ten internets if you guessed right!

[ruprecht]

Afterburner?

[ruprecht]

Sorry if I contributed to your thread being hijacked Rapid. I've had enough, it's just getting infantile now. See you all in another thread!

[EtherealN]

CE_Mikemonster, while I do agree in principle with what you are saying there, I don't really think anything is gained by continuing this further. (Realizing that I myself shouldn't have risen to the perceived bait either.)

 

And yeah, has to be Afterburner.

[CE_Mikemonster]

I was thinking along those lines myself EthrealN

 

Hope you oldies don't remember playing on that game!