Aim 120 boresight mode

[skywalker22]

8 hours ago, Frederf said:

There is no such thing as AIM-120 supported by HMCS in BORE mode. When BORE is selected the missile diamond is centered on the HUD always and the missile launches straight ahead. There is no direction of the missile via helmet like AIM-9. In slaved mode the missile is cued by radar which may be cued by helmet e.g. ACM BORE but in bore mode the missile only looks straight ahead.

Correct. AIM-120C in BORE mode only looks straight ahead, so through the center of the HUD (missile diamond symbology).

[Temetre]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Frederf:

There is no such thing as AIM-120 supported by HMCS in BORE mode. When BORE is selected the missile diamond is centered on the HUD always and the missile launches straight ahead. There is no direction of the missile via helmet like AIM-9. In slaved mode the missile is cued by radar which may be cued by helmet e.g. ACM BORE but in bore mode the missile only looks straight ahead.

Thx for clearing it up then, in that case everyhing works like its supposed to be. 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb skywalker22:

Correct. AIM-120C in BORE mode only looks straight ahead, so through the center of the HUD (missile diamond symbology).

Where did you get the stuff about the JHMCS/off bore cueing from then? It certainly sounded interesting.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Temetre

[GGTharos]

4 hours ago, Temetre said:

Thx for clearing it up then, in that case everyhing works like its supposed to be. 

Where did you get the stuff about the JHMCS/off bore cueing from then? It certainly sounded interesting.

Much newer versions - probably starting with 120C7 have had 'high off boresight improvements' which means whatever you want it to mean, no details are given

[Temetre]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb GGTharos:

Much newer versions - probably starting with 120C7 have had 'high off boresight improvements' which means whatever you want it to mean, no details are given

Yeh I made that assumption too, but I was just quoting wikipedia tbf^^

It sounded like Skywalker has some source or so. (pls dont do a discord if its classfied tho)

[GGTharos]

You can look into GAO reports, they usually have yearly reports reporting in very general terms P3I goals stated, missed or met for AMRAAM development.  These are not classified and are publicly available.

Edited April 16, 2023 by GGTharos

[Temetre]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb GGTharos:

You can look into GAO reports, they usually have yearly reports reporting in very general terms P3I goals sated or met for AMRAAM development.  These are not classified and are publicly available.

Oh wow! That explains why theres always a lot of talk about american weapon development. I wasnt aware there was this big of a level of transparency.

Thx tho, that helps a bit to understand the direction of development. Makes the wikipedia claims also believable.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Temetre

[Top Jockey]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:34 PM, Temetre said:

...

My current understanding is: This isnt implemented in DCS, the JHMCS doesnt seem to do anything for the Aim-120 in bore mode. And in slave mode the JHMCS controls the fire radar, not the aim-120 (which is slaved to the radar). 

Ive also not really seen anything indicating the missile should be able to do that (and IIRC someone else said the same). So I wondered if youre sure that this is even in the Aim-120C version of the missile?

 

 

On 4/15/2023 at 11:28 PM, Frederf said:

There is no such thing as AIM-120 supported by HMCS in BORE mode. When BORE is selected the missile diamond is centered on the HUD always and the missile launches straight ahead. There is no direction of the missile via helmet like AIM-9. In slaved mode the missile is cued by radar which may be cued by helmet e.g. ACM BORE but in bore mode the missile only looks straight ahead.

 

These bolds are also my impression ^

 

AIM-9 use (Bore mode) :

JHMCS looks in a direction > AIM-9 seekerhead looks in that direction > AIM-9 seekerhead locks on target

AIM-120 use (Slave mode) :

JHMCS looks in a direction > Radar looks in that direction > Radar locks on target > AIM-120 will follow the Radar locked target (when fired) ... not the JHMCS

 

Some particularities though :

- although the Radar may have a target locked within its gimbal limits;

- when at very close distances the AIM-120 might not be able to do a tight enough curve to reach the target (when fired).

Edited April 19, 2023 by Top Jockey

[Temetre]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Top Jockey:

Some particularities though :

- although the Radar may have a target locked within its gimbal limits;

- when at very close distances the AIM-120 might not be able to do a tight enough curve to reach the target (when fired).

Tho Id note its pretty normal to shoot an Aim-120 without the missile having a lock yet, so "off seeker/boresight capabilities" are probably core to the missile anyway.

Thats why it sounds believebal to me if you could cue more modern Aim-120s with the JHMCS. Maybe just a shot to the right or back over the shoulder to disrupt pursuers? Tbf it probably needs some really smart datalink and navigation to make stuff like that possible, but the Aim-120 already has some amazing capabilities.

Like,  arcade video game rockets are often dumber than IRL Aim-120s, because that would be too overpowered.

 

Btw since the original topic is answered for now, can you shoot Aim-120s at pure datalink targets and maybe even mark/navpoints? I remember something like that, but never really looked into it.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Temetre

[Aquorys]

3 hours ago, Temetre said:

Thats why it sounds believebal to me if you could cue more modern Aim-120s with the JHMCS. Maybe just a shot to the right or back over the shoulder to disrupt pursuers? Tbf it probably needs some really smart datalink and navigation to make stuff like that possible, but the Aim-120 already has some amazing capabilities.

Let's put it that way: From a technical perspective, it should theoretically be implementable with a software change. The missile's guidance computer would have to be able to understand a command that gives it an initial heading that the missile is supposed to turn to and go active immediately, or possibly an initial point and bearing from that point, which would possibly be more accurate.

3 hours ago, Temetre said:

Btw since the original topic is answered for now, can you shoot Aim-120s at pure datalink targets and maybe even mark/navpoints? I remember something like that, but never really looked into it.

Some aircraft can, e.g. the Eurofighter can buddy-launch at a target that the firing aircraft cannot see, but a compatible aircraft can see, by using datalink information. How you acquire information about a target is not necessarily important, so in theory you could make up some imaginary target information and guide anywhere using the datalink, the only remaining question is whether there would be a suitable target for the missile there to acquire when it transitions to terminal active mode.

The datalink has become quite powerful more recently, e.g. Aegis ships (like the Arleigh Burke and the Ticonderoga) have demonstrated the ability to launch SAMs at datalink targets that an F-35 can see, but the ship itself cannot see, effectively using an F-35 as an auxiliary sensor for over-the-horizon target acquisition.

[Temetre]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Aquorys:

Let's put it that way: From a technical perspective, it should theoretically be implementable with a software change. The missile's guidance computer would have to be able to understand a command that gives it an initial heading that the missile is supposed to turn to and go active immediately, or possibly an initial point and bearing from that point, which would possibly be more accurate.

Yeh. Maybe what im imagening is overly complicateed, but who knows what kind of classified capabilities the Aim-120 has, especially in more modern fighters. With the two-way datalink it might even be more actively controlled by other aircraft.

If you ever looked into wire-guided torpedoes, they are pretty crazy. Those torps are more like mini-submarines with a warhead, even acting like probes to give information to the 'mothership'. Ofc Aim-120s are much more limited in range and maneuvering, but it shows how far you can take active weapons.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Aquorys:

Some aircraft can, e.g. the Eurofighter can buddy-launch at a target that the firing aircraft cannot see, but a compatible aircraft can see, by using datalink information. How you acquire information about a target is not necessarily important, so in theory you could make up some imaginary target information and guide anywhere using the datalink, the only remaining question is whether there would be a suitable target for the missile there to acquire when it transitions to terminal active mode.

The datalink has become quite powerful more recently, e.g. Aegis ships (like the Arleigh Burke and the Ticonderoga) have demonstrated the ability to launch SAMs at datalink targets that an F-35 can see, but the ship itself cannot see, effectively using an F-35 as an auxiliary sensor for over-the-horizon target acquisition.

I somehow thought the DCS' F-18 could do that as well. But I might misremember that^^

[GGTharos]

The missile datalink still has to be emitted from the shooter's radar.   If any of that has changed, it's not obvious anywhere.

[Temetre]

Am 20.4.2023 um 02:32 schrieb GGTharos:

The missile datalink still has to be emitted from the shooter's radar.   If any of that has changed, it's not obvious anywhere.

In that case I probably just confused a few things, maybe with the SLAM-ER or so.

[Aquorys]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:32 AM, GGTharos said:

The missile datalink still has to be emitted from the shooter's radar.   If any of that has changed, it's not obvious anywhere.

Even if the platform is limited to emitting the datalink signal from the launching aircraft, where the link to the missile is being emitted from and where the targeting information is coming from is not necessarily the same. E.g., an SM-6 fired from an Aegis ship is guided by the Aegis system, but the information about the target vector is gathered by an F-35 that is datalinked to the Aegis system.

[GGTharos]

SM-6's and their support and command and control network have nothing to do with AIM-120s.  Whatever capability the 120 has today, it's limited to specific variants and specific carriers that are not available to us in-game.

[Frederf]

On 4/19/2023 at 8:32 PM, GGTharos said:

The missile datalink still has to be emitted from the shooter's radar.   If any of that has changed, it's not obvious anywhere.

AIM-120C-6 (and before) yes

AIM-120C-8 (D) no

[Temetre]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Frederf:

AIM-120C-6 (and before) yes

AIM-120C-8 (D) no

^ Neat, we got a pretty clear picture now. 120C is either pitbull or otherwise only controlled by the aircrafts FCR pre-launch, and the 120D is where the missile becomes more autonomous/datalink-active or so.

Mostly ive learned that the Aim-120D is awesome and I want it

Especially because the F-16 radar can be a bit of a malaise in the after. (though maybe im just bad or ECM is weird/bugged)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Temetre

[Aquorys]

8 hours ago, Temetre said:

^ Neat, we got a pretty clear picture now. 120C is either pitbull or otherwise only controlled by the aircrafts FCR pre-launch

Not quite, it could be neither of the two, because there are some more.

Before launch, the AIM-120C's onboard radar does not do anything.

Then there are two possibilities:

1. Launch with initial target vector information
   
   Upon launch, the AIM-120C is guided using a datalink. The AIM-120C does not use its onboard radar at this point (and it does not care how the guiding aircraft obtains the data that it uses for providing guidance information. As far as I know, all aircraft currently available in DCS use exclusively their own fire control radar to obtain and maintain a target track for an AMRAAM, while some aircraft in the real world use other methods as well, that is part of what is often referred to as "sensor fusion" and "network centric warfare").
   
   The launch of an AMRAAM using this method is what pilots would typically call out by saying "fox three" on the radio, sometimes followed by additional information.
   
   As long as the missile receives guidance information through the datalink, it continues in the command inertial guidance phase. If datalink guidance is terminated before the terminal active mode can be used, it continues in the inertial guidance phase. At a certain distance from the target (known or estimated), the missile transitions to terminal active mode. This is where the the missile attempts to lock onto the target using its onboard radar. Terminal active mode comprises two different radar modes, the first of which is limited to high pulse repetition frequencies (HPRF). Reaching the second one, which is MPRF capable, is what pilots typically call out by saying "pitbull" on the radio.
    
2. Launch with no initial target vector information and no datalink
   
   This is the "BORE" launch, or e.g. a launch without a bugged target in the F-16, where the missile goes into terminal active mode immediately and locks onto the first target it can find, using its own inertial navigation system to maintain flight in the direction that it was launched in until it begins tracking a target or falls out of the sky)
   
   The launch of an AMRAAM using this method is what pilots typically call out by saying "maddog" on the radio.

Public rumor has it that some air to air missiles are capable of additional launch and guidance methods, but the details about any of those remain classified and therefore cannot be discussed.

 

[Geraki]

Statement that should be implemented 

In BORE mode, missile fire is done by a simultaneous long press of UNCAGE and Pickle.

 Right now is  straight forward pickle and fire ,The UNCAGE and Pickle. occured in order to avoid pilot accidentally fire AMRAAM.

In addition In BORE mode, the missile will ignore any bugged target on the FCR.