MK20 rockeye low damage

[Sylosis]

I know this might not be an issue with the Harrier per say, but that's what I am using right now to drop Rockeye bombs. I'm tried them in a mission where there is a camp with infantry, small vehicles and fuel trucks. I drop 2 bombs in the middle of said camp, which was quite small and clustered. I killed nothing.

At the summary after the mission, it said I only had 2 bomblets (Mk118) that hit something. Not a kill, but hit.... I had to drop them in CCRP cause the mission I was in was not really allowing for CCIP (manpads in the area). It's in the Kerman campaign, so I'm not the one choosing the loadout.

Read at multiple places the cluster bombs are broken, but these are posts from many years ago. 

What's the situation with MK20s? Are they that weak or am I not using them right? and am I supposed to do something special to use them? I tried both fuze type, I tried following Chuck's guide (I think quite a few things in his guide are possibly not important).

I also read quite different "preferred" methods of delivery. Some say you should do a high steep dive, others a low levelled pass. While I can see both working, does this mean they can't be dropped in a levelled CCRP pass at higher altitudes (say 5000 - 8000 ft?)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Sylosis

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

please include a short track replay example showing what you think is the issue we are happy to take a look 

thanks

[Sylosis]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

please include a short track replay example showing what you think is the issue we are happy to take a look 

thanks

Well maybe I should have put this somewhere else but I thought of it as a "problem" and not a bug, so I felt it was ok to write this here?

I kept searching after writing this post and I think my MK20 are simply not deploying. Meaning the canisters hit the ground directly without deploying bomblets and register very little damage.

Is it possible that dropping them in CCRP at relatively high altitude (more than 8000 ft AGL) is causing this?

I'll run tests later today.

[JackHammer89]

Hello, 8000ft should be more than high enough to get the canisters open, I seem to remember that the 2 fuzing settings stand for, Pri (primary) is an altitude that the canister opens at (it's a defined altitiude and cant be changed in the AV8B), and OP (Optional?) is a time after release (1.2 seconds) that the canister opens. Releasing the MK20 @ 8000ft may be too high causing too much spread. They seem to be more subject to wind than the "standard" bombs once the canister are open. I would suggest using a 30 degree dive, dive from 12600 agl, release the bombs at 6000ft and 500KTAS (for freefall munitions). Depending on the target I'd probably go quantity 2, multi 1, interval 81 to 100. 

I'll also go and test the MK20s and see how I get on. 

[Ramsay]

17 hours ago, Sylosis said:

What's the situation with MK20s? Are they that weak or am I not using them right? and am I supposed to do something special to use them? I tried both fuze type

How effective they are depends on the target and if there are surface winds. AFAIK you should select the Primary fuse in the harrier.

I had no issue destroying soft trucks (12 vehicles of a 14 truck line in one pass), zero wind (CCIP Mk-20 Qty 4, Multi 1, 600 ft spacing)

5 hours ago, Sylosis said:

Is it possible that dropping them in CCRP at relatively high altitude (more than 8000 ft AGL) is causing this?

Currently AUTO/CCRP ripple bombing is broken in the Harrier and only the first bomb drops, you can use the uncage button to switch to CCIP but that will require you to designate the target/area using the HUD.

My initial CCIP testing was from between 8000-1000 ft with weapon release at ~1400 ft AGL (the Mk-20 opens at 1200 ft releasing it's bomblets).

Testing higher altitude (10-8,000 ft) CCRP releases, the Mk-20 falls with a much steeper impact angle and the bomblet spread was less, in those tests only a single vehicle was hit/destroyed per bomb. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Ramsay

[JackHammer89]

I did some 30 degree dive testing with 2 bombs per drop. Killed T90s to BRDMs. I will note that CCRP seems to be not working properly as mentioned above. CCIP worked as intended. So I'd go with CCIP at the moment. 

For a 30 degree dive 
dive entry - 12600ft above ground level
350 KTAS entry speed
Roll in (begin dive attack) - 4 nm from target
aim for flight path marker at -30 degrees
You should be lined up on target at 8000ft agl
Bomb release 6000-3500ft and 500 KTAS
Recover dive by >35000ft

Recommended weapon config - Q 4, M 2, I 80 - medium targets <50m spread.  
 

MK20 30 degree dive.trk

[Sylosis]

2 hours ago, JackHammer89 said:

I did some 30 degree dive testing with 2 bombs per drop. Killed T90s to BRDMs. I will note that CCRP seems to be not working properly as mentioned above. CCIP worked as intended. So I'd go with CCIP at the moment. 

For a 30 degree dive 
dive entry - 12600ft above ground level
350 KTAS entry speed
Roll in (begin dive attack) - 4 nm from target
aim for flight path marker at -30 degrees
You should be lined up on target at 8000ft agl
Bomb release 6000-3500ft and 500 KTAS
Recover dive by >35000ft

Recommended weapon config - Q 4, M 2, I 80 - medium targets <50m spread.  
 

MK20 30 degree dive.trk 331.81 kB · 1 download

Thanks for that.

I also made some tests and might have similar conclusions. Did an Instant Action, but forgot to choose Persian Gulf which is the map where I was encountering issues, but I still think although I wasn't able to perfectly reproduce the same thing that bothers me, it's close enough.

Attached is my track. First of all, I suck at landing and I'm probably doing multiple things wrong. So bare with me please.

You can fast forward as I have to land to re-arm for MK20s. After that, I made the following tests:

- High CCRP release

- Dive CCIP release

- Low pass 2 bombs CCRP release

- Dive CCIP 2 bombs

Both CCRP tests didn't do great. They completely missed the target, but I can't say I'm surprised. CCRP isn't a precise delivery mode and I'm probably not good enough for it.
The first attempt at diving was interesting because I felt the bomb fell quite directly on a simple truck, yet it didn't do much damage. I'm no military expert, but that didn't look like a heavily armoured vehicle.... so why just 16% damage?

Last dive is also interesting, because although it did kill the tank I aimed at (using 2 bombs in the release), it looked like the canister didn't deploy. I simply mean the animation felt wrong. But considering the truck got killed, I have to assume everything deployed correctly.

Could you guys please comment on the 2 CCIP dives? The one that did very little damage, and the other one where it feels like the canister animation doesn't make it look like it deployed?(but probably did)

Harrier Mk20 Test.trk

[Ramsay]

8 hours ago, Sylosis said:

Could you guys please comment on the 2 CCIP dives? The one that did very little damage, and the other one where it feels like the canister animation doesn't make it look like it deployed?(but probably did)

Unfortunately your track didn't play back correctly, after rearming at Kutaisi, the Harrier flew over the sea (a heading of 236°) instead of towards the target area.

[Sylosis]

2 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Unfortunately your track didn't play back correctly, after rearming at Kutaisi, the Harrier flew over the sea (a heading of 236°) instead of towards the target area.

Wow.... And I made sure I didn't time accelerate during my flight, as I know this screws up tracks..... This is so annoying

[Ich Dien]

I would %110 reccomend Tacview in this instance. The playback tools are much easier to use, more flexible and it records reliably 100% of the time, which IMHO is way better than having a full-detail cockpit view that CFITs before you get to any of the bits you need to review. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Ich Dien

[Sylosis]

8 hours ago, Ich Dien said:

I would %110 reccomend Tacview in this instance. The playback tools are much easier to use, more flexible and it records reliably 100% of the time, which IMHO is way better than having a full-detail cockpit view that CFITs before you get to any of the bits you need to review. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it!