What to expect after owning a WinWing product for 1 year

[Terminator357]

In April of 2022 I purchased the F16 Throttle and Stick. I gave the setup a great review in this forum. Link here: 

It's been almost exactly one year since I made that purchase so I thought I'd come back and offer some insights to anyone considering buying a new WinWing HOTAS for themselves.

SimAppPro is still awful software, but none of us buy WinWing products for the software, so I'll focus on the hardware. Both the stick and throttle still feel solid and smooth, and the buttons continue to function with very positive 'clicks'. The overall flight sim experience with these units is outstanding.

But that's where the good things about WinWing stop. 2 weeks after the original 1 year warranty ended, the throttle failed. I worked with WinWing's customer service to confirm that the unit's axis for throttle control is completely dead. All of the buttons, sliders, and switches still work, but the throttle itself does not. 

Given that WinWing is a Chinese company and shipping goods back and forth is time consuming and expensive, I fully expected that they'd probably just mail me a part or two and ask me to fix it myself, which I would have been happy to do. But that is not how WinWing chose to handle it. Instead, they responded with this:

"I have checked that your order has been over one year, in other words, your order is not covered by the warranty, so you need to pay the round-trip freight and maintenance costs. It's not very cheap. Maybe you can buy a new throttle base. It's up to you."

Normally, you'd expect a video game controller that costs this much money to last many years. Since the unit failed just 2 weeks after the end of the original one year warranty, I asked them to reconsider. That request got shot-down (pun intended)

The F16 Throttle replaced an old Saitek X52 that I'd used without problems for almost 6 years prior to getting the WinWing. I recently plugged the X52 back in and yep, it still works. The Saitek HOTAS cost me less than $125 and feels cheaply constructed. The WinWing HOTAS cost me way over $600 and feels well constructed. If we're being honest, the WinWing product just looks better too. WinWing is eye-candy for your flight sim setup, whereas the Saitek just looks like a toy.

It's ironic that the uber-expensive WinWing failed while the uber-cheap Saitek still functions flawlessly. Eye-candy is great to look at, but if I actually want to *fly* the planes I purchase in DCS, I need a throttle that works...

DCS is not a cheap game to play. Most of us invest a lot of time and money into our gear and planes. Aside from a strong PC, your controllers are the single most important element to having a good flight sim experience. A good experience is ultimately how you'll determine if the money you spend on DCS is worth it, or isn't.

In the US, Chinese goods have always had a reputation of being poorly designed, poorly made, and poorly supported. WinWing was one of those companies that seemed to be an exception to that. I won't go so far as to say the WinWing HOTAS is poorly designed...But poorly made? Poorly supported? Yes, it does appear to be those things.

Think twice before you invest in a WinWing HOTAS. Some of these setups cost well over $1000. In one year's time, do you want to have to repeat the purchase because your original one failed?

If you're going to spend this much money on a controller, strongly consider Virpil or CH or TM as alternatives...If you want to save the expense all together, just get a Saitek. Odds are that it'll still be working after many years. But even if it isn't, replacing it will cost you a heckuva lot less than replacing the WinWing will. 

This really cool looking F16 throttle on my desk is basically a $600 paper weight now.  Keep that in mind as you contemplate which HOTAS company to give your hard earned dollars to  

[markom]

20 minutes ago, Terminator357 said:

This really cool looking F16 throttle on my desk is basically a $600 paper weight now.  Keep that in mind as you contemplate which HOTAS company to give your hard earned dollars to  

Have you considered trying to repair it yourself? If you are contemplating throwing it away, please do so in the mailbox. I'll pay for shipping.

[raptorman0]

And return it fixed? How kind of you
 

[Terminator357]

14 minutes ago, markom said:

Have you considered trying to repair it yourself? If you are contemplating throwing it away, please do so in the mailbox. I'll pay for shipping.

Happy to fix it myself, but that would require WinWing sending me the [board, sensor, connector...whatever] that failed. So far, all they've offered is to sell me a new base.

[_Hoss]

Main reason I'll never touch WINWING products. Trash my TMWH and TARGET software all you like, but it's been 10 plus years and its still going strong.. still going strong, sorry, I repeat myself.

Cheers

Edited May 3, 2023 by _Hoss

[markom]

39 minutes ago, Terminator357 said:

Happy to fix it myself, but that would require WinWing sending me the [board, sensor, connector...whatever] that failed. So far, all they've offered is to sell me a new base.

There could be other options (for example ripping out their control board and replacing it with Arduino, and programming it to run, essentially, a bunch of buttons).

[erniedaoage]

Did you already open up the throttle? If not do it and look for maybe loose connections on cables. You can maybe spot the faulty part and try to repair it. But keep your patience and don't do it in a hassle because you wanna fly. I thrashed my throttle pedal of my 10+ year old fanatec pedal set in a rage "accident" a couple of days ago. I wanted to race and the throttle made strange inputs so i opened it and saw a loose cable on the potentiometer and tried to solder it back on. It took me 2 hours because the freaking cables are so thin and my soldering iron is just a cheap piece of equipment. finally i got it to work again and i saw the calibration was off, so i replugged the usb and the throttle stopped working. Something snapped inside me, than something snapped on the throttle and i put the simracing stuff away.  Now i am waiting for a new pedal set to arrive.

 

Back on topic i don't think the board is broken since the other buttons and sliders work, so maybe just a loose connection or if it's hall sensors maybe the magnet moved a bit or fell off.

[markom]

21 minutes ago, erniedaoage said:

Back on topic i don't think the board is broken since the other buttons and sliders work, so maybe just a loose connection or if it's hall sensors maybe the magnet moved a bit or fell off.

Why do you think I asked the OP to ship it to me?

Joking aside, I think your initial and unseen analysis is spot-on. It may be a simple problem to solve with some patience. Warranty option is already out the window, so this is where screwdrivers and allen keys come out.

[Terminator357]

Will definitely be taking this thing apart, maybe it's just a loose wire or magnet. Broken wires are one thing, broken electronics are another given the later rarely provide obvious external signs that they've failed. 

Will post what I find, but the 1 year old WinWing is basically a $600 brick right now. Might still be useful for a glider plane, but I don't think DCS has any of those. Even if it did, I can't imagine the guns on it would be anywhere near as fun as the one on the A10   

[Terminator357]

A few pics of the disassembled throttle. I've inspected every centimeter of it under a magnifying glass. There are no loose connections, no broken or failed solder joints, no obvious burns or discolorations on the main PCB. The Hall sensors weren't loose or disconnected and the PCBs for them have no evidence of problems either. In short, there is nothing wrong with this throttle that can be observed visually. The problem is definitely a failed electronic component.

The PCBs look cheaply made and WinWing uses hot glue to secure loose wires to them. This says a lot about how poorly these units are manufactured. You can't tell if a micro chip has failed by looking at it, but given the reputation of Chinese consumer electronics one has to be concerned that the chipsets they're using are cheap Chinese knock offs of existing consumer market chipsets(???) 

I hate to say this, but WinWing appears to be just another example of poorly built Chinese junk being dumped on the world, except this time they're charging top dollar for their junk. It's a shame because I absolutely love the flight sim experience their controllers provide. Of course, if the controller doesn't work to begin with then you're not gonna be doing *any* flying, let alone flying with top quality gear.

WinWing has the potential to be the industry king of game controllers, but it will never realize that potential. That's because it can't (won't?) break itself free from the stigma that has dogged Chinese manufactured goods for decades. That is, they're complete crap. 

I have a Thrustmaster FCS Mk1 flight stick (look it up) that's over 15 years old. It was one of the very first HOTAS style controllers you could buy for a flight sim. That stick is ancient, but it still works to this day. Contrast that with the WinWing, one of the most expensive controllers you can find on the market, broken and unusable after 1 short year.

Don't waste your hard earned dollars on WinWing products.   

 

The main PCB. Hot glued. No signs of damaged solder or connections, and no obvious signs of PCB burns or discoloration:


The Hall sensor PCB, no obvious signs of failure.

Hall sensors securely connected, no loose wires.

Hot glue...plenty of hot glue:

What your Orion Throttle will eventually look like if you buy one:

[markom]

Next step would be to test the actual connectors using a multimeter. It could be a cold solder, or a snapped wire still.

Hot glued wires are more common than you think

[Terminator357]

Yes. I could also get out my Fluke and check the potentiometers and any resistors on the face of the PCB, but I'm not going to. My job was to pay for the unit. WinWing's job was to give me one worth the money they demanded for it. I did mine, they didn't do theirs.

Winwing is going to have to put me on their payroll if they expect me to diagnose and repair their product. Unfortunately, they're the only ones who've received any $$ up to this point so me doing anything other than tossing it in the trash is unlikely. 

A Saitek X52 just shouldn't outlast a HOTAS that's 6 years newer and costs 500 bucks more than it. I'd be embarrassed by that if I was winwing....but I'm not winwing, so there ya go  

 

[markom]

My offer to receive your broken unit still remains. If you ever decide to throw it away, DM me. I will pay for the shipping.

[Terminator357]

I will sell it to you, same price as WinWing sold it to me for. Barely used, almost as good as new....Yeah, I'd tell me to pound sand on that deal too 

...this thing is headed for the plastic bin on the curb. I'd recommend you buy new if you're in the market. Same advice I gave to a guy DMing me about it earlier: roll the dice and buy new, ya might get a good one. 

[Richi]

I have the same opinion. Everything from China is crap and a risk, even some things work very well.

I also bought some parts, they were cheap and I accept the risk. But something expensive or reliably functional, no, I wouldn't go for it.

But, your experience is sad. Even it doesn't help, I'm sorry too.

[_Hoss]

Those surface mount SMT resistors (green) and Caps (Tan) can break and you'll never know it until you let the components and PCB heat up. They expand at different rates.. Coefficient of Thermal Expansion CTE. The component will Open, be it a pull up resistor, Vcc resistor or Cap... you can measure it with a Multimeter and it will read good.... unless you are a very good solder tech with the appropriate PACE Station I wouldn't try it. We never used Chinese parts (Chips) on USN weapon systems. Good luck!

[Terminator357]

15 minutes ago, _Hoss said:

Those surface mount SMT resistors (green) and Caps (Tan) can break and you'll never know it until you let the components and PCB heat up. They expand at different rates.. Coefficient of Thermal Expansion CTE. The component will Open, be it a pull up resistor, Vcc resistor or Cap... you can measure it with a Multimeter and it will read good.... unless you are a very good solder tech with the appropriate PACE Station I wouldn't try it. We never used Chinese parts (Chips) on USN weapon systems. Good luck!

 

Given the situation, and the fact that I am definitely not a very good solder tech, I could probably have just waited until I heard one of those caps go "pop!" and saved myself the disassemble time   ...But yeah, very thankful to know we are not sending our guys into harm's way equipped with tech like this. Good gear is something I don't mind spending money on, that goes for my bank account and my taxes 

[Dragon1-1]

Well, I've had no problems so far, aside from broken finger lift springs, which they agreed to replace (albeit shipping costs a lot for such small bits). Support took a bit of back and forth to agree to a replacement, but I suspect they misunderstood me at first. Also had my Orion for a year. It's been reliable so far, knock on the wood. Remember, Western manufacturers occasionally have dud units, too, and unless we can get data on just how often this thing happen, a single anecdote doesn't mean a thing. Their support isn't the best, but most people seem to be doing fine with that kit. 

[Terminator357]

40 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, I've had no problems so far, aside from broken finger lift springs, which they agreed to replace (albeit shipping costs a lot for such small bits). Support took a bit of back and forth to agree to a replacement, but I suspect they misunderstood me at first. Also had my Orion for a year. It's been reliable so far, knock on the wood. Remember, Western manufacturers occasionally have dud units, too, and unless we can get data on just how often this thing happen, a single anecdote doesn't mean a thing. Their support isn't the best, but most people seem to be doing fine with that kit. 

Sure, my situation is an anecdote...An anecdote that's been repeated countless times across countless market segments. Not a single person here will say Chinese products have a reputation for quality. That comes from decades of dealing with their goods in our markets, and that is definitely not anecdotal.

But's let's be honest here, ok? Your situation is just an anecdote too....

My setup was only a few weeks out of warranty. Wingwing could have done all the things they did for you, for me too. But they didn't. They wouldn't even bother to sell me the broken part(s), let alone offer to send them free of charge or even for the cost of shipping. All I got was 'Too bad, so sad....go buy a whole new unit.'

Very few "western" companies would've done that for a product that was 2 weeks out of warranty. Even fewer "western" companies that consider their products top-tier would have done it. Winwing is definitely trying to place itself in the flight gear top-tier list. The problem is that they're trying to play with the big boys without having to put in the legwork it takes to actually *be* one of the big boys.

I fully expected that I'd have to fix this thing myself. What I didn't expect was the complete blow-off I got from Winwing. After all, they are the ONLY place on the planet that carries the parts for their kit, so if they won't help, who TH will? "Their support isn't the best..." That is very correct, but grossly understated. Their support is horrible. Almost as bad as their manufacturing methods, and equally as bad as their software. Yours broke after a year and they helped you. Mine broke after a year and they laughed at me. So you rolled the dice and so far you got all 7's. I rolled the dice and so far I got all snake eyes.

As is always the case, and particularly when we're talking about Chinese products....Let the buyer beware. That's why this follow up review exists. It's not for guys like you and me that already paid for our controllers, it's for the guys (or gals) that haven't yet. I might be able to help save these people some money. If I can't do that, then I can certainly help them save some very serious headaches in the future.
 

[Dragon1-1]

46 minutes ago, Terminator357 said:

Very few "western" companies would've done that for a product that was 2 weeks out of warranty. 

It sounds like you were very lucky dealing with Western companies. Ever tried contacting Microsoft support? I had to outright lie to even talk to a human, and they weren't of much help in the end. Now, top tier luxury product makers usually have better support than Winwing does, mostly because they tend to be small and not as rule-bound. Trying to get a big corporation to make a fix to your product out of warranty? "Sorry, company policy, our system says it's out of warranty, nothing we can do." Then, there are those that do it on purpose (ever hear the term "planned obsolescence"?). Trust me, there are Western companies are much worse than Winwing is, particularly with support that's not oriented towards big business. At least with Winwing, you get a somewhat clued-in human being straight away, as opposed to being routed through a bot and then to an Indian call center where the T1 crew can't deviate their checklist even if they had the knowledge to.

Let's not make some anti-China screed out of this. Yes, Winwing customer service isn't great, but for me and other people, they ultimately did their job. In fact, in your case, you technically have no right for free repair outside warranty period, and they're within their right to refuse freebies, particularly given the costs of shipping stuff to China. Most companies will laugh at you if you come in with an expired warranty and attempt to get a warranty repair out of them "because it's only been two weeks". I also have many Chinese products that work perfectly fine. Some of them have Western brand logos on them, some don't, but in many cases you're buying Chinese even if you try to get a reputable US brand, it's all been outsourced. Their tech usually works, and when they want to, they can make it really good. 

Sure, both those stories are anecdotes, however you seem to assume your experience is representative. I'm not saying it's OK to have crap support, but I am saying that there's nothing inherently Chinese about crap support. Also, in my case, they presumably helped because I showed them exactly what was wrong (a spring dangling loose). "Dead axis" as a problem can be caused by a lot of things that they probably didn't expect you to be able to diagnose. Had you come to them with a failure that clearly implicates a specific part, they would've likely been more forthcoming. 

[Terminator357]

32 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It sounds like you were very lucky dealing with Western companies. Ever tried contacting Microsoft support? I had to outright lie to even talk to a human, and they weren't of much help in the end. Now, top tier luxury product makers usually have better support than Winwing does, mostly because they tend to be small and not as rule-bound. Trying to get a big corporation to make a fix to your product out of warranty? "Sorry, company policy, our system says it's out of warranty, nothing we can do." Then, there are those that do it on purpose (ever hear the term "planned obsolescence"?). Trust me, there are Western companies are much worse than Winwing is, particularly with support that's not oriented towards big business. At least with Winwing, you get a somewhat clued-in human being straight away, as opposed to being routed through a bot and then to an Indian call center where the T1 crew can't deviate their checklist even if they had the knowledge to.

Let's not make some anti-China screed out of this. Yes, Winwing customer service isn't great, but for me and other people, they ultimately did their job. In fact, in your case, you technically have no right for free repair outside warranty period, and they're within their right to refuse freebies, particularly given the costs of shipping stuff to China. Most companies will laugh at you if you come in with an expired warranty and attempt to get a warranty repair out of them "because it's only been two weeks". I also have many Chinese products that work perfectly fine. Some of them have Western brand logos on them, some don't, but in many cases you're buying Chinese even if you try to get a reputable US brand, it's all been outsourced. Their tech usually works, and when they want to, they can make it really good. 

Sure, both those stories are anecdotes, however you seem to assume your experience is representative. I'm not saying it's OK to have crap support, but I am saying that there's nothing inherently Chinese about crap support. Also, in my case, they presumably helped because I showed them exactly what was wrong (a spring dangling loose). "Dead axis" as a problem can be caused by a lot of things that they probably didn't expect you to be able to diagnose. Had you come to them with a failure that clearly implicates a specific part, they would've likely been more forthcoming. 

LOL! Yes! I've dealt with Microsoft support, and you are completely right on that one 

...But gimme a minute here. I have more to say about the whole situation.

[Terminator357]

OK, time to acknowledge that I may have grossly overstated things when I called WinWing's support "poor". Up until just a while ago I hadn't been given any options so I was quick to dismiss them as a serious company.

That's no longer the case. Winwing does indeed appear to want to make this right. "Max" is Winwing's overseas manager of user operations. He and I recently exchanged messages and he proposed a very fair solution. I will ship them the unit (my dime), they will fix it (their dime). They didn't have to do this, but they did. Time will tell if the unit actually comes back working, but there's a few things that'd make me a complete @ss if I left them unsaid right here in the same thread I've been flaming Winwing in. 

This is what "excellent" support looks like. This is the sort of thing that separates the boys from the men, so-to-speak. I wasn't blowing smoke when I said they have the potential to be the kings of this market. I mean seriously, who else out there is making designs like these available to people like you and me?

They're pricey, but the best stuff always is. Winwing offering what they have here for me, and doing what they did for Dragon1-1, are the kind of things that put them in "the best stuff" category. If this plays out as proposed, bet the farm I will be back at WinWings website buying more of their stuff. Like I said above, I don't mind spending good money on good gear. If you're contemplating buying controllers at this level, you probably don't either.

In the meantime, here's another anecdote. TM's corporate headquarters is local, and by "local" I mean I could throw a rock and hit their building. That's how I got the FCS Mk2 (not a Mk1 actually) back when they were still a nobody. Who'd heard of TM 15 years ago? I didn't get the Warthog because it just doesn't offer as much functionality as the F16EX, although it is certainly a contender in the top-tier controller market. I'm going to throw TM a bone here and pick up their TWCS but only so I can get back to flying while the Orion gets taken care of (nope, not interested in using the Saitek again and the F16 stick does still work fine)....The point I want to make is that even though TM is local, literally my home team, I still prefer to go with the Chinese company's product. I wasn't just wrong to call Winwing's support poor, I was also wrong to call their products typical Chinese junk. The difference maker isn't whether something breaks or not, it's what happens *after* it breaks  

Stay tuned here. I'll keep this thread updated.

[Dragon1-1]

With Winwing, you have to remember one thing: you're dealing with people who are not only non-native English speakers, but speak a very different language from English and all related ones, and it's not even written in the same alphabet. Thus, good, clear communication is key, and if they don't seem to understand, just be patient with them and explain with pictures. I gave them some snark about initially sending me off to "known issues" because they thought I was complaining about finger lifts squeaking (they asked for a video, I gave them one, but it seems it didn't show the issue clearly enough). After I sent pics showing the broken spring in a more obvious way, we quickly got on the right track. 

In my book, any support that gets you a thinking human right away gets at least "good" in my book, unless the human chooses to be an ass (thankfully rarely the case). I've wasted way too much time with phone bots (looking at you, M$ and FedEx), and checklist drones at some call centers aren't that much better.

As for TM, not much experience with that. I bought their TPR pedals because WinWing don't make any and they don't seem like they're going to. It's a wonderful hunk of metal, and TM is widespread enough that I was able to pay in my own currency and get free delivery. I'd say it's the same level of quality as WW stuff, which is to be expected given the price tag on both.

[Dudikoff]

4 hours ago, Terminator357 said:

In the meantime, here's another anecdote. TM's corporate headquarters is local, and by "local" I mean I could throw a rock and hit their building. That's how I got the FCS Mk2 (not a Mk1 actually) back when they were still a nobody. Who'd heard of TM 15 years ago? I didn't get the Warthog because it just doesn't offer as much functionality as the F16EX, although it is certainly a contender in the top-tier controller market. 

Just in case you're not joking, TM released their FLCS and TQS (IIRC, the first F-16 HOTAS) in mid-90s and everybody into flight sims at the time wanted them.

[Terminator357]

Not joking, mid 90's is about the time I got into sims. Not seriously until late 90's I guess. Gen Xer tho so I've been gaming since gaming was a thing. 

There might've been a bigger demand for them than I know of, I didn't spend any time in chat boards or forums back then if that's where it existed. Mine is for Macintosh, at the time it was a major b1tc# to get good controllers for those, or at least good controllers that had drivers that would work in them. TM being local was lucky, them being local and having mac support was xtra lucky.