RAM usage question

[Beirut]

Hello,

 

I have 32GB RAM and on some maps it hits about 26GB usage. I'm curious if it's actually using 26GB because that's all it needs or if it's using 26GB because that all the 32GB will let it use, reserving the rest for other things?

 

I'm considering getting 64GB, and this is something I'd like to know.

 

Thank you. 

[Thinder]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:46 AM, Beirut said:

Hello,

 

I have 32GB RAM and on some maps it hits about 26GB usage. I'm curious if it's actually using 26GB because that's all it needs or if it's using 26GB because that all the 32GB will let it use, reserving the rest for other things?

 

I'm considering getting 64GB, and this is something I'd like to know.

 

Thank you. 

I tested Cl14 GSkill kits at 3200MHZ and 3600MHz, all but one 32GB capacity.

Configurations were 4 X 1 or 2 X 1 sticks, even if you use BDie, 64GB might actually lead to a loss of performances:

In my case <> 24% at 4K MSAA X 2 in Fire Strike 3DMark Pro test, in a 4 X 1 16GB configuration, the reason is that only the 8GB sticks are one rank and the maximum your average high street CPU Controller can handle is 4, we're talking Zen 3 and the Intel equivalent and DDR4 RAM.

So basically, the 2 X 16GB kit with the same sticks from the 64GB kit is way faster than 4 X 16GB, the fastest configuration being the 4 X 1 8 GB thanks to interleaving (4 sticks) all at the same stock frequency of 3600MHz.

From my Pov, you'd be much better off optimizing your PC RAM usage, disabling and/or uninstalling every app you don't need because they are chewing up your RAM capacity only running in the background, I've done that but I still have about 52 apps doing just that, you also can set your Start Up Items options to minimize the number of apps kicking in when you start.

Setting up your paging files to a different partition and giving them the priority for Windows apps is also helping the process, in short, there is no miracle when it comes to RAM, the Controllers are setting the pace (Bus bandwidth) taking into account the load they come under and in gaming, better look at 4K to make sure you know when your CPU is struggling.

The RAM will let your CPU run in an optimum way or not, Cl16 RAM or higher for a DDR4 kit will already insure the presence of a CPU-RAM bottleneck, the B.Die Cl14 kits will avoid that and allow you to run at optimum frequency thanks to a much wider range of timing, be it 3200 or 3600MHz, what matters here is latency.

For more on the subject have a look at what Intel Techies were doing with basically the same RAM kits than mine (now I use the NEO instead of the RGB but they are very similar):

How to Overclock RAM

You don't need to O.C a Cl14 kit, when I used the3200MHz I never O.Ced it, but they are designed for this so it is possible to run a 3200MHZ Cl14 kit at 3600MHz without problems, I chose the stock 3600MHz and that's as fast as my CPU Controller would actually run RAM.

Now, under load in DCS high settings during tests my RAM usage was 17729MB vs a  total capacity of 37798MB split between 32GB of RAM and 5.120MB of Virtual Memory (paging files), (corrected from in idle to under heavy load) my system uses about the same percentage of RAM than yours, 23.833MB but if you don't use Cl14 it will do it faster.

In short, I don't have a RAM issue right now, better, I don't have a RAM-CPU bottleneck and the low latency make sure the data is recycled fast enough to avoid a bandwidth issue, because at the end of the day, it is the RAM speed and latency which matters when it comes to processing data.

 

In Intel test, they managed to increase their bandwidth

Quote

from between 32 and 33 GB/s with a latency of 60 ns to between 46 and 48 GB/s. The latency is now down to just 47 ns, then setting up their RAM, between 50 and 53 GB/s at a latency of 45 ns.

So with the same capacity, the bandwidth raised from 32 to 53 GB/s (21 GB/s difference), I'm sure there are Cl 16 RAM kits that would run your system  at 31 GB/s when the CPU controller throttle down under load, even more so with 8 ranks, this shows the reason why lower latency is so important for DDR4 systems.

According to Crucial, their DDR4 3200MHz have a Clock Cycle Time(ns) of 0.62.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Mr_sukebe]

Thinner> could you quantify the improvement that you experienced in DCS frame rate improvements?

[BitMaster]

I keep it simple

Depending on how you use DCS, SP or MP, lots of F10 and F2/3, heavy missions… yes, it will help.

I can easily force my DCS way above 50GB usage if I want to. I assume a good portion of RAM is cached, aka a QoL feature that if you don’t have it you have stutter or some other delay.

More slower RAM ( if needed ) over faster RAM with lower quantity.

similar to torque, you can‘t substitute torque with higher RPM.

[Beirut]

Hello again,

 

I just ordered 2 x 32GB sticks to replace my 4 x 8GB sticks. The make and speed of the memory is the same, just different size. Any point to using two of the old 8GB sticks along with two of the new 32GB sticks for the sake of 80GB total instead of 64GB, or is that just asking for a mess of some kind?

 

I'm sure I don't need the 80GB, just curious if it would work and, well, it's free so to speak.

 

Thank you. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Beirut

[BitMaster]

Try 64 first, if they work flawless you can try 80 but it‘s likely going to downgrade speed and more latency IF it boots.

Try it, you can‘t break it that way

[Beirut]

Thanks. 

[Thinder]

17 hours ago, Beirut said:

Hello again,

 

I just ordered 2 x 32GB sticks to replace my 4 x 8GB sticks. The make and speed of the memory is the same, just different size. Any point to using two of the old 8GB sticks along with two of the new 32GB sticks for the sake of 80GB total instead of 64GB, or is that just asking for a mess of some kind?

 

I'm sure I don't need the 80GB, just curious if it would work and, well, it's free so to speak.

 

Thank you. 

 

It all depends on the latency.

There is no 32GB kits with 1 single rank, only the 8GB has them and this solution is only efficient at Cl14, so at least with 2 X sticks you're on the safe, but if you think about swapping a 4 X 1 Cl14 stick for those, you won't see any improvement at 4K, more likely the opposite.

Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14 is slower than 32GB at 4K, the CPU Controllers won't run the channels at full speed, as simple as that, as tested, 24% difference between the 2 X 1 and 4 X 1, where is the gain?

The whole point here is that some people seems to think that larger capacity make your PC faster, in reality, you can have 64GB slower than 32 simply because your CPU won't run at full throttle under load or because the latency is too low compared to a Cl14 kit.

Instead of insisting on the opposite, they should splash the money and put it where their writing is, I've done it, tested them and I know what the score really is, you don't need 64GB with a bottleneck, you need RAM that process data faster.

In the case of a 4 X 1 stick Cl14 kit, latency recycles your RAM capacity way faster than Cl16, that's 30.88% minimum and I guaranty you that a 63GB kit won't be 30.88% faster than a 32GB on capacity only, not even going from 3200 to 3600MHz.

I noticed you don't specify the latency of your RAM, and I doubt that you will spend over 500 quids on a Cl14 kit of this capacity, from where I'm standing it might just turn out to be a complete waste.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Mr_sukebe]

Thinder, thanks for your thoughts.

Same question as above, what were the other quantifiable enhancements in frame rates that you saw?

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Thinder said:

It all depends on the latency.

There is no 32GB kits with 1 single rank, only the 8GB has them and this solution is only efficient at Cl14, so at least with 2 X sticks you're on the safe, but if you think about swapping a 4 X 1 Cl14 stick for those, you won't see any improvement at 4K, more likely the opposite.

Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14 is slower than 32GB at 4K, the CPU Controllers won't run the channels at full speed, as simple as that, as tested, 24% difference between the 2 X 1 and 4 X 1, where is the gain?

The whole point here is that some people seems to think that larger capacity make your PC faster, in reality, you can have 64GB slower than 32 simply because your CPU won't run at full throttle under load or because the latency is too low compared to a Cl14 kit.

Instead of insisting on the opposite, they should splash the money and put it where their writing is, I've done it, tested them and I know what the score really is, you don't need 64GB with a bottleneck, you need RAM that process data faster.

In the case of a 4 X 1 stick Cl14 kit, latency recycles your RAM capacity way faster than Cl16, that's 30.88% minimum and I guaranty you that a 63GB kit won't be 30.88% faster than a 32GB on capacity only, not even going from 3200 to 3600MHz.

I noticed you don't specify the latency of your RAM, and I doubt that you will spend over 500 quids on a Cl14 kit of this capacity, from where I'm standing it might just turn out to be a complete waste.

 

 

 Uhhhh.....

 

I don't know whether to be impressed, depressed, or both. 

 

You're way past my mental snack bracket of knowledge. At this point I'm going to install the 64GB when it arrives today, hope the PC doesn't explode, and see what happens. I'll let you know. 

[Thinder]

27 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

 Uhhhh.....

 

I don't know whether to be impressed, depressed, or both. 

 

You're way past my mental snack bracket of knowledge. At this point I'm going to install the 64GB when it arrives today, hope the PC doesn't explode, and see what happens. I'll let you know. 

It won't explode but it might not boot up, that's a possibility, some combination of O.S release (early Windows 10 Pro can't handle 64GB despite Microsoft claims of the contrary) doesn't work that well if you fit the RAM just after a fresh install.

We still have no idea of the latency of your previous and future RAM kit, it is important to have a better picture, when you have time, post your all specs in your signature, it makes things easier for people to assist you.

But just try to figure this: Filling up a sink with a small hole, you may double the size of the sink, but the hole size remains the same, that's what doubling RAM capacity can lead to.

On the other hand, increasing the hole size by 30%+ will help emptying it, which is the same principle than RAM processing data to the Processor, for the same frequency and capacity, 30% increase is a huge improvement. Read Intel's article on How to Overclock RAM

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Thinder said:

It won't explode but it might not boot up, that's a possibility, some combination of O.S release (early Windows 10 Pro can't handle 64GB despite Microsoft claims of the contrary) doesn't work that well if you fit the RAM just after a fresh install.

We still have no idea of the latency of your previous and future RAM kit, it is important to have a better picture, when you have time, post your all specs in your signature, it makes things easier for people to assist you.

But just try to figure this: Filling up a sink with a small hole, you may double the size of the sink, but the hole size remains the same, that's what doubling RAM capacity can lead to.

On the other hand, increasing the hole size by 30%+ will help emptying it, which is the same principle than RAM processing data to the Processor, for the same frequency and capacity, 30% increase is a huge improvement. Read Intel's article on How to Overclock RAM

 

 

I certainly appreciate your help, it's just that you're way over my head with a lot of this. At this point I'm just trying to maintain my composure. 

 

I have 4x8GB of this: https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Vengeance-3200MHz-Desktop-Memory/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2SQUN1EKPXPA4&keywords=ddr4%2B16&qid=1684582457&sprefix=ddr4%2B16%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-3&th=1

 

This is what I ordered: https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-VENGEANCELPX64GB-PC4-25600-C161-35V-Desktop/dp/B07Y4ZZ7LQ/ref=sr_1_3?crid=B5QSF1XVBWLS&keywords=ddr4%2B64gb&qid=1684582268&sprefix=ddr4%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-3&th=1

 

Specs: Win 10 Pro/ 3700X/B450Tomahawk Max/4070/Jack Daniels shot glass as a video card support

Edited May 20, 2023 by Beirut

[Thinder]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

 

I certainly appreciate your help, it's just that you're way over my head with a lot of this. At this point I'm just trying to maintain my composure. 

 

I have 4x8GB of this: https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Vengeance-3200MHz-Desktop-Memory/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2SQUN1EKPXPA4&keywords=ddr4%2B16&qid=1684582457&sprefix=ddr4%2B16%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-3&th=1

 

This is what I ordered: https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-VENGEANCELPX64GB-PC4-25600-C161-35V-Desktop/dp/B07Y4ZZ7LQ/ref=sr_1_3?crid=B5QSF1XVBWLS&keywords=ddr4%2B64gb&qid=1684582268&sprefix=ddr4%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-3&th=1

 

Specs: Win 10 Pro/ 3700X/B450Tomahawk Max/4070/Jack Daniels shot glass as a video card support

 

OK, that's better.

Both are non B.Die kits, Cl16.

I'm not familiar with the Corsair Kits but chances are the 8GB sticks are one rank vs two for the 16GB, they both have quite a high latency of 77/77.5ns, the 32GB kit is newer so it is possible that they improved them to increase bandwidth compared to previous kits, its scores 50.5 GB/s vs 43.8 GB/s in MC Read Peak Score which is not bad for a Cl16 kit.

You might experience a slight improvement but not at 4K or/and under heavy load because of the limits of your CPU controller, when I was talking about sink and hole it's easy to see, a Trident Z (Cl14) will run at 53 GB/s, meaning every 21 second it will recycle the equivalent of your 64GB RAM kit more than your Cl16 kit, and it will do it at 4K, when your combo will throttle down, that's what lower latency do for you.

Cl14 kit eliminates the bottleneck you'll experience at 4K with a Cl16 and overall greatly limits the need for higher capacity, it also work very well with AMD processors because they are designed for lower latency, especially the X 3D.

So all in all it is an upgrade, OK, but not what I would have gone for even so the cost is much lower than paying for the premium of a new Cl14 kit, from my humble PoV simply increasing the capacity of a Cl16 kit is not doing enough for a system intended to use playing DCS, even less in VR.

Consider if you have the funds, looking for a second hand Cl14 kit,  4 x 1 sticks are best, then you will notice a difference under load as I did after upgrading from a Crucial Cl16 kit.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Beirut]

42 minutes ago, Thinder said:

OK, that's better.

Both are non B.Die kits, Cl16.

I'm not familiar with the Corsair Kits but chances are the 8GB sticks are one rank vs two for the 16GB, they both have quite a high latency of 77/77.5ns, the 32GB kit is newer so it is possible that they improved them to increase bandwidth compared to previous kits, its scores 50.5 GB/s vs 43.8 GB/s in MC Read Peak Score which is not bad for a Cl16 kit.

You might experience a slight improvement but not at 4K or/and under heavy load because of the limits of your CPU controller, when I was talking about sink and hole it's easy to see, a Trident Z (Cl14) will run at 53 GB/s, meaning every 21 second it will recycle the equivalent of your 64GB RAM kit more than your Cl16 kit, and it will do it at 4K, when your combo will throttle down, that's what lower latency do for you.

Cl14 kit eliminates the bottleneck you'll experience at 4K with a Cl16 and overall greatly limits the need for higher capacity, it also work very well with AMD processors because they are designed for lower latency, especially the X 3D.

So all in all it is an upgrade, OK, but not what I would have gone for even so the cost is much lower than paying for the premium of a new Cl14 kit, from my humble PoV simply increasing the capacity of a Cl16 kit is not doing enough for a system intended to use playing DCS, even less in VR.

Consider if you have the funds, looking for a second hand Cl14 kit,  4 x 1 sticks are best, then you will notice a difference under load as I did after upgrading from a Crucial Cl16 kit.

 

 

 

You are the Moses of RAM. 

 

I'm at a 27" screen at 1440p. I figured I could use an edge on the newer maps. Definitely budget RAM, but I'm that kind of a guy. I'm happy with a "good enough" rig. Maybe at the end of the summer if I'm flush I'll build a new rig with some fancy DDR5, but for the moment, I'm looking to max out my AM4 build, might even throw in a 5800X3d. Not sure.

 

Thanks again.

[Thinder]

16 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

You are the Moses of RAM. 

 

I'm at a 27" screen at 1440p. I figured I could use an edge on the newer maps. Definitely budget RAM, but I'm that kind of a guy. I'm happy with a "good enough" rig. Maybe at the end of the summer if I'm flush I'll build a new rig with some fancy DDR5, but for the moment, I'm looking to max out my AM4 build, might even throw in a 5800X3d. Not sure.

 

Thanks again.

Just an example of how cheap a better RAM kit can be.

GSkill Trident Z RGB - 32gb (4 x 8 gb) DDR4 3200mhz CL14 £75.00

And you also can sell yours too.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Beirut]

22 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Just an example of how cheap a better RAM kit can be.

GSkill Trident Z RGB - 32gb (4 x 8 gb) DDR4 3200mhz CL14 £75.00

And you also can sell yours too.

 

 

I certainly can't argue with you about the facts, but my new RAM should show up in a few hours - thanks be to the heathens at Amazon - and I'm looking forward to trying it out. I'm sure it will offer enough of an upgrade to provide some kind of fun and/or satisfaction. And if it really sucks, I have a buddy who might buy it, or maybe just toss it to my nephew. 

 

But if I build a new rig this summer, I will definitely @Thinder and ask for advice. 

[Thinder]

4 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

I certainly can't argue with you about the facts, but my new RAM should show up in a few hours - thanks be to the heathens at Amazon - and I'm looking forward to trying it out. I'm sure it will offer enough of an upgrade to provide some kind of fun and/or satisfaction. And if it really sucks, I have a buddy who might buy it, or maybe just toss it to my nephew. 

 

But if I build a new rig this summer, I will definitely @Thinder and ask for advice. 

I don't think it will suck but why don't you try to conduct a back to back test with a free version of 3DMark?

Test the old kit before swapping and do the same test with the new one, compare the results, if possible at 4K 2 X MSAA because ultimately, that's what DCS demands if you want to play at higher res, there I'm talking VR or more demanding scenarios.

One benchmark for all your hardware Information about 3DMark

Download 3DMark Basic edition for Windows. Link to 3DMark Time Spy download.

From the moment I decided to upgrade my PC I started to use 3DMark Pro at those resolutions because I wanted to play DCS in VR and I have tested 2 CPUs, 4 RAM kits, 2 GPUs, BIOS settings and even cooling upgrades (Thermal limits), so I know exactly what does what and which effect each upgrade has on my rig's performances, it is worth the time and effort.

And btw, if you're serious about your gaming you'll optimize your PC the way I described first, memory usage is not only a question of RAM, the OS apps also play a large role in it especially if not taken care of.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Thinder

[Beirut]

32 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

And btw, if you're serious about your gaming you'll optimize your PC the way I described first, memory usage is not only a question of RAM, the OS apps also play a large role in it especially if not taken care of.

 

 

It's not that I'm not serious, it's just that I have certain mental limitations for some of the finer points of technerd stuff. I built my own rig, but I still found it stressful. Hell, I changed my video card a week or two ago and nearly had to go into therapy.

 

But I'll try what you suggest. And I do appreciate the help. 

[Slippa]

23 minutes ago, Beirut said:

it's just that I have certain mental limitations for some of the finer points of technerd stuff. I built my own rig, but I still found it stressful. Hell, I changed my video card a week or two ago and nearly had to go into therapy.

Oh, do I know the feeling. 

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Slippa said:

Oh, do I know the feeling. 

 

I just swapped out the 4x8GB sticks for the 2x32GB sticks and was mumbling "Don't break! Don't break! Don't break!" the whole time. What a schmoo. 

 

On the plus side, it all seems to work. And I upped the graphics settings as Thinder suggested and hit 37GB usage(!) over Aleppo with one stinky Apache at 1440p. Cairo might hit 50GB at this rate. But that's pretty much why I got the RAM.

[Slippa]

Oh I was lost at the head of the thread. Fascinating to read and try to learn something. I've been baffled by far less and do just as much wizard wishing it'll all go the way it's meant to. Encouraging to see people helping out but most of this computer lark baffles me.

Hope you get some good results with it. I can't even fly since yesterdays update, never mind counting sticks, clock speeds and chanting mantras

[Beirut]

3 minutes ago, Slippa said:

Oh I was lost at the head of the thread. Fascinating to read and try to learn something. I've been baffled by far less and do just as much wizard wishing it'll all go the way it's meant to. Encouraging to see people helping out but most of this computer lark baffles me.

Hope you get some good results with it. I can't even fly since yesterdays update, never mind counting sticks, clock speeds and chanting mantras

 

I will chant a mantra to your good fortune and hope you can fly again soon. 

[Thinder]

6 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

It's not that I'm not serious, it's just that I have certain mental limitations for some of the finer points of technerd stuff. I built my own rig, but I still found it stressful. Hell, I changed my video card a week or two ago and nearly had to go into therapy.

 

But I'll try what you suggest. And I do appreciate the help. 

Guys, if you think I'm not stressed  at time having to cope with stuff that don't work as intended because the standards are different, the new gear is defectuous or Microsoft decide to play havoc with AMD Drivers and the GPU settings....

With this new rig I had to deal with: A PCI_E1 Slot that didn't work out of the box (MSI Mobo), DCS first VR update that completely destroyed the best settings I had in VR with the Pico (See topics, it was epic), AMD sending me messages asking to check on drivers because Microsoft update was replacing them with their own, the very same Microsoft Update causing the GPU to lose <> 10% in performances because they included MPO settings that prevents the GPU to boost, following DCS instructions for new settings to get my VR to work again after yet another update, test 4 different AMD drivers, setting up DCS Beta MT, etc etc.

All of that while being told that what I experienced before it all turned sour never happened despite uploading 4 different videos while testing my new GPU, being trolled by Intel users telling me I was "all wind" because I pointed out that their Youtube gurus were making loads of noise about a few mishandled AMD GPU, being trolled by some members of the same "community" about how bad and prone to explode our 7900 were, being depressed by everyone crying at AMD in their forum etc.

So believe me when I tell you that I needed more faith than the Pope to sort it all out and figure out what was wrong because in some case (Windows update) no one knew what was going on, today I recovered my GPU performances, figured out my new motherboard settings, got my system to run fast and cool but I'm still struggling to get Steam Virtual Desktop to work stable because their update is also screwed up.

That's how it goes, with new technologies comes new standards, drivers, apps and so on, so if you stop learning, your PC dies or crawl at best, anyway I'm always trying to help people with stuff I know but I did ask GSkill, AMD and MSI support about the RAM kits, what worked and what doesn't, even before swapping from Crucial Cl16.

I'm always happy to help but my tip; ask technical supports and do your own home work, the more you understand how your rig works, the better.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Thinder

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, Thinder said:

Guys, if you think I'm not stressed  at time having to cope with stuff that don't work as intended because . . . 

 

Are you trying to go slumming with we common men?   

 

8 hours ago, Thinder said:

 

I'm always happy to help but my tip; ask technical supports and do your own home work, the more you understand how your rig works, the better.

 

And your help is much appreciated. 

 

By the by, I made no changes in the bios after installing the new RAM. I saw it read as 64 and ran at 3200, so I left well enough alone and exited. I have no idea if that was the right thing to do. When I'm in BIOS page I always feel like I'm half a click away from bricking my rig.

[Thinder]

12 hours ago, Beirut said:

Are you trying to go slumming with we common men?  

Just saying that nothing comes easy. Steam bugs sorted by reinstalling Radeon Sofware... Talk about standards, it's like every single programmer do their best to give you a hard time...

 

Quote

And your help is much appreciated. 

Well, I reiterate, it's little use if you guys don't get your head into it, ask questions to support teams and read about it because the next time it happen (or something else), you could sort it out yourself then later on be in a position where you, in turn can assist by passing the little experience you gained...

 

Quote

By the by, I made no changes in the bios after installing the new RAM. I saw it read as 64 and ran at 3200, so I left well enough alone and exited. I have no idea if that was the right thing to do. When I'm in BIOS page I always feel like I'm half a click away from bricking my rig.

That's how it's supposed to be, not always the case since CPU Controllers RAM frequency limits are 3200MHz for both Intel and AMD DDR4 systems, a 3600 MHz might need some tweaking in BIOS.

Btw, in the list of purgatorial karmatic experiences coming with my new gear, I forgot to mention MSI BIOS being unstable, making it nearly impossible to boot my system after swapping from one PCI_E slot to the other and back, "default" setting is default and didn't work once the GPU back to CPU_E1 slot, I had to swap again and set them both to Gen 3 or whichever worked.

This one was the worst of all, I had complete boot failure down to the blue screen of hell forcing a clean install of Windows 10 Pro, which forced me to go to Windows 11Pro which itself came with more problems with Automatic Update minefield and AMD drivers settings take over, programmers would have wanted to screw my system, they wouldn't have done otherwise...