Unable to select rf hellfires in pilots seat

[fragal]

Don’t seem to be able select RF hellfires from the pilots seat like with the cpg seat it seems to be stuck in sal, but no way to get out of it, have tried the suggested fixes in the other thread with rf and Sal mix but to no avail anyone else having this? 

I like having the option to fire hellfires myself….

 

disregard have to wait for fcr 🫣

Edited May 18, 2023 by fragal

[BattlingGravity]

Until the FCR is implemented, the rear crew station does not have a valid sight for RF missiles. 

[davidrbarnette]

Seriously? I haven't had the time to try the new patch yet, but there is no option for the pilot to tell George to use radar Hellfires? What are single player users supposed to do? That's a head-scratcher.

[Poptart]

2 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

Seriously? I haven't had the time to try the new patch yet, but there is no option for the pilot to tell George to use radar Hellfires? What are single player users supposed to do? That's a head-scratcher.

That's not what he said. He said there is no way to fire RF hellfire from the back seat right now. Nothing about Geroge.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Poptart

[davidrbarnette]

22 minutes ago, Poptart said:

That's not what he said. He said there is no way to fire RF hellfire from the back seat right now. Nothing about Geroge.

 

Fair enough. Curiosity killed the cat, so I hopped into the sim and tried the radar hellfire. You can, indeed, select it by using George from the Pilot's seat. However, assuming I'm doing it right (a big assumption), it doesn't really guide and hit anything. My procedure:

1) Use George to switch to radar hellfire with a "long left" press on the George menu.

2) Slave George to a target.

3) When George says "in range", tell him to launch the missile. It seems to take a few requests as he re-lases, then fires.

4) The missile comes off the rail and veers across the helicopter's flight path, then seems to come back around toward the target, but inevitably misses by a fairly large margin.

If I'm doing something wrong, I'm open to feedback. Note that I am not firing from a hover and have tried launching from anywhere from 7k to 3k meters.

[jubuttib]

On 3), I found that the procedure seems to go something like this: Slave George to target -> George lases target -> Once the "Target Data?" prompt goes away George stops lasing -> You can tell him to fire.

I found it helpful to turn on the video feed from the TADS, so that I could see when the "Target Data?" prompt disappeared.

On 4), the missiles are supposed to veer to the side (it gives the missile a chance to use doppler beam sharpening techniques to improve the radar imaging, which doesn't work well when you're just flying straight at the target). For missing, the only thing that comes to mind is are you shooting from a hover? I noticed that the missiles tend to miss more if you don't shoot quite soon after the designation, or move around, especially sideways.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

15 hours ago, BattlingGravity said:

Until the FCR is implemented, the rear crew station does not have a valid sight for RF missiles. 

As pilot, we can fire the K (after WAS-ing right for HF) at what CPG George has lased. So can't we likewise fire the L at what George has acquired in his TADS and when the AI command rose is showing that a RF HF is currently selected? It's really just pulling the trigger on behalf of George (as he sometimes doesn't). But what happens instead is that I can fire a HF (after WAS-ing right) but it will always select a K even if I have the Ls on the left pylons and the Ks on the right pylons - and of course the K misses because George is still in RF mode and not lasing. I was thinking since it defaults to selecting the left pylon it might work if I put the Ls on the left side but it will just pick a K on the right. Is this meant to be?  

Edited May 19, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Raptor9]

The weapon actioned in the crewstation is targeted by the sight selected within that same crewstation. Weapons actioned in one crewstation cannot be fired by the other crewstation. The only exception to this logic is COOP rocket mode, but in this case both crewmembers are actioned to the rockets and both crewmembers receive the same targeting information from the CPG's sight. It is not possible to employ a weapon independently of the opposite crewstation while simultaneously using the sight from the opposite crewstation.

The laser-guided Hellfire doesn't need to receive guidance from the launching platform. When the pilot shoots the laser-guided Hellfire from the backseat, it is essentially a "remote" missile shot, meaning that the missile is being fired on someone else's laser designation. Whether that "someone else" is a JTAC, a drone, another aircraft, or that pilot's own CPG in the same aircraft, it doesn't matter. The pilot is using HMD as his sight while firing that missile, which cannot fire a laser. However, since the radar-guided Hellfire does need to receive targeting data from the launching platform (which the HMD cannot provide), the RF missile type cannot be selected and the SAL type is automatically selected and "barriered."

This behavior is described on page 165 of the DCS AH-64D Quick Start Guide.

[fragal]

^^^^ this is the bit i read in the manual after doing some further digging, i really should read the manual more  

@Raptor9But i guess another question is would it be possible to allow George to fire from further away ? His maximum range is a lot closer than what i consider my max range to be when firing from the cpg seat after playing around with the L's for a few hours.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by fragal

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

13 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The weapon actioned in the crewstation is targeted by the sight selected within that same crewstation. Weapons actioned in one crewstation cannot be fired by the other crewstation.

Ok I see your point. Thanks.
Just for discussion - should it not (as a safety feature for example) prevent me from WASing up a K and firing it 'accidentally' (when CPG George is in TADS RF HF mode)?

[Raptor9]

10 minutes ago, fragal said:

But i guess another question is would it be possible to allow George to fire from further away ? His maximum range is a lot closer than what i consider my max range to be when firing from the cpg seat after playing around with the L's for a few hours.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it is optimal. I can shoot at a target with the gun while doing a barrel roll, but it doesn't mean those rounds are likely to hit. George is programmed to engage targets based on what is optimal. If the symbology presents a weapon inhibit message, he won't fire because he recognizes that as a condition that might cause the engagement to be unsuccessful, just like a real crewmember.

[Raptor9]

8 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Just for discussion - should it not (as a safety feature for example) prevent me from WASing up a K and firing it 'accidentally' (when CPG George is in TADS RF HF mode)?

Any time a crewmember actions a weapon, it will take control away from the other crewstation. Crew coordination is important. George will not fight you for a weapon, but as soon as you interact with him again, he will take the weapon back that is currently assigned to him in the AI menu.

But if the CPG is shooting the gun at a target and Pilot sees someone close by that is about to shoot down the helicopter, and needs to take the gun to engage the higher threat, the ability to take a weapon from the other crewmember is important when speed is critical.

[fragal]

Ok that explains why George is not shooting the gun at a target 200yards away off the nose and slightly below you, because it's suboptimal - for me it's frustrating because i'm yelling "he's right there just shoot it"........

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Any time a crewmember actions a weapon, it will take control away from the other crewstation. Crew coordination is important. George will not fight you for a weapon, but as soon as you interact with him again, he will take the weapon back that is currently assigned to him in the AI menu.

But if the CPG is shooting the gun at a target and Pilot sees someone close by that is about to shoot down the helicopter, and needs to take the gun to engage the higher threat, the ability to take a weapon from the other crewmember is important when speed is critical.

Got it, thanks!

[Raptor9]

Just now, fragal said:

Ok that explains why George is not shooting the gun at a target 200yards away off the nose and slightly below you, because it's suboptimal - for me it's frustrating because i'm yelling "he's right there just shoot it"........

There may be other reasons too, like if flying erratically and he is having trouble keeping his crosshairs on target. Or perhaps inside a minimum range. If a target is 200 yards away, the pilot should be engaging with the gun from the helmet sight while flying away. Enemy positions at those ranges are not targets, they are threats.

[fragal]

A truck in a hover off the nose ? or chasing an ai mi8 in straight and level? I generally do take the gun at that point regardless but some of the firing restrictions applied to george sometimes feel a little restrictive and more times a little frustrating as knowing i've done them myself or had a friend in the cpg seat who's done it as well in similar situations with success - I did not mean for you to take this as any form of rant, criticism or sarcasm but more honest feedback so apologies if this annoyed you for some reason - have a good afternoon. 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by fragal

[Raptor9]

6 minutes ago, fragal said:

A truck in a hover off the nose ? or chasing an ai mi8 in straight and level? I generally do take the gun at that point regardless but some of the firing restrictions applied to george sometimes feel a little restrictive and more times a little frustrating as knowing i've done them myself or had a friend in the cpg seat who's done it as well in similar situations with success - I did not mean for you to take this as any form of rant, criticism or sarcasm but more honest feedback so apologies if this annoyed you for some reason - have a good afternoon. 

I wasn't offended, nor was I responding to your previous posts with any emotion, I was stating things as facts as they exist in DCS, with some real-life context added. George is still WIP, but he is designed to emulate a crewmember working with the same limits as a human operator. If you are so close to a target, that is inside the minimum laser range of 500 meters and he may have determined it is too close.

[TheoreticalApex]

17 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

Fair enough. Curiosity killed the cat, so I hopped into the sim and tried the radar hellfire. You can, indeed, select it by using George from the Pilot's seat. However, assuming I'm doing it right (a big assumption), it doesn't really guide and hit anything. My procedure:

1) Use George to switch to radar hellfire with a "long left" press on the George menu.

2) Slave George to a target.

3) When George says "in range", tell him to launch the missile. It seems to take a few requests as he re-lases, then fires.

4) The missile comes off the rail and veers across the helicopter's flight path, then seems to come back around toward the target, but inevitably misses by a fairly large margin.

If I'm doing something wrong, I'm open to feedback. Note that I am not firing from a hover and have tried launching from anywhere from 7k to 3k meters.

In my opinion I think George just sucks at lazing and gives the missile inaccurate target data. I always have the TADS video up and I have notice when he turns the laser on to get the target data for the Lima, he is not always lazing directly on the target. Sometimes he is off by a bit and sure enough the missile goes right to where he was lazing. If I hop in the front seat and put a good laze on the target, the Lima hits the target every time.