Looking for ideas to tshoot terrible MT performance in VR

[crazyave]

I'm on a 13900k and 4090, so I would have thought the MT update would be beneficial.

However, I've not been able to experience any consistent benefit at all, quite the opposite actually.

I've done a lot of the standard tshooting steps and follow every thread here to try new things people are working on with their issues.  A few things helped a little bit, but not enough to be playable.

What I experience is both the in game performance counters and the OpenXR performance counters report great specs 7-10MS, 80-90 fps really consistent.   However, the reality of actually looking through the headset is what looks like 10-30 fps a lot of the time, even causing nausea.

If I switch to ST, keeping all settings the same, the performance is great in comparison, like 2-3 times better looking actually in the headset.  What's really odd is that the fps counters are WORSE in ST but the actual experience is way better, actually playable.

It's almost as of the performance counters are just faked for MT or something, at least the actual experience is what it leads you to believe.

How do I move forward here?  I've posted logs and settings previously with no response.  Is there a process I can run through to get this resolved?

[darkman222]

What headset are you using? Aero?

The best I find is to use steamVR and not any openXR hack or the Aero openXR hook.

Use fpsVR to determine if your GPU is not occasionally getting in the way, and you mistake a GPU impact for CPU impact.

Also still dealing with some performance loss over time, that got better. Posted here:

 

[crazyave]

I'm in an HP G2.  Single thread is using SteamVR and works perfectly.

Maybe I should try OpenXR in ST and see if it's OXR that's the issue... hmmm.. I'll try that!

Yea, for a short while I had MT working decently (for about a week), then it just stopped being good with no changes on my part.  I cleared shaders/etc no change.  It's been unplayable since.  I can relate a bit to the threads indicating strong aircraft pitch changes or head movement revealing the slow frames.... especially with horizon lines in view.

I can't get MT to run with SteamVR, it just doesn't work, won't start.

Edited June 3, 2023 by crazyave

[Willie Nelson]

@crazyave when you say it “looks like 10-30 fps” do you mean that the refresh rate is consistently 10-30 fps or are you trying to describe stutters. By stutters I mean at least a few seconds of smooth performance interrupted by a sudden block at one image before moving on to another few seconds at least of smooth performance? 
 

If you’re talking about stutters then don’t panic, you’re in good company. This is a known thing at this stage of multi-threading. If in fact you are getting something that looks like 10-30 fps however, then I’m not sure what your problem might be. 

[crazyave]

How you describe stutters is more of what I'm getting, but its very prevalent.  In the right scene it's pretty much all the time.

The really backwards thing about it is that all the counters say 7-10ms and 80-90fps, yet the screen is nauseating with jumpiness.

Stutters vs bad frame rate, kind of the same thing experience wise, i.e. unplayable, in my case anyway.  The experience is so much better using ST and steam VR its not even a consideration to use MT. 

I've heard a lot of people rave about MT being so much better, yet in my case it's just terrible, which makes me think something is not right with my setup.  I'm totally stumped as to what that is. 

[darkman222]

@crazyavewhat VR headset do you use?

[crazyave]

HP Reverb G2

[DishDoggie]

I track my CPU usage with 32 cores in HP G2 VR and i only hit 15% Usage the entire time with all cores unlocked. While I am in DCS in VR yet I get CPU Bound indication and FPS at 50 to 60 and Stutter and Screen lag when I turn my head left and right on the ground in the cockpit I run 64G of memory 12G on AMD RX 6900 XT If I run MT with no VR I hit 119 FPS in the same mission. This update has changed MT in the last 038090 I think is the last version. I was rocking 90 fps in DCS and loved it. OB is understandable testing phase and I understand and hope this is not the direction it is going to stay in for VR. I almost feel the need to stop using OB at this point.

[darkman222]

@crazyaveWe have comparable systems. I have a 12900 KF , 4090, 32 GB Ram, Varjo Aero.

Do you have fpsVR installed via Steam? And can you read out your CPU and GPU frame time?  Then Ill send you two test missions I use since long time to measure performance. So we can compare the graphs froms fpsVR.

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by darkman222

[Beau1969]

Hi,

I would suggest following this guide, it may help. I used it to set up both my desktop PC and laptop (road warrior); my specs are in the signature. Using the guide, on the 3080 laptop (Razer 14 - 2021), I am able to get it playable in VR, although not on some campaign missions (Reflected Simulations), and on the desktop PC (5800X and 3090Ti), I am able to max out the FPS to the refresh set in the headset software (Oculus/Meta Link, in my case.) In heavily scripted/loaded campaigns (again Reflected Simulations), I am able to get very playable results, 30-40 FPS when on the ground and 50-70+ airborne; these are without ASW turned on.

Link: DCS VR Settings & Optimization Guide (2023, Patch 2.8 Multi-threading) - GamersByNight

See the 'bug report' in the multi-thread forum titled BNB Campaign for more details on the settings I have used and part of the process/testing.

--

Overall, I highly recommend using OpenXR and the OpenXR Tool Companion. 

[Willie Nelson]

23 hours ago, crazyave said:

How you describe stutters is more of what I'm getting, but its very prevalent.  In the right scene it's pretty much all the time.

The really backwards thing about it is that all the counters say 7-10ms and 80-90fps, yet the screen is nauseating with jumpiness.

Stutters vs bad frame rate, kind of the same thing experience wise, i.e. unplayable, in my case anyway.  The experience is so much better using ST and steam VR its not even a consideration to use MT. 

I've heard a lot of people rave about MT being so much better, yet in my case it's just terrible, which makes me think something is not right with my setup.  I'm totally stumped as to what that is. 

Yep, you’re in good company. Stutters are a real problem for many of us attempting to use MT now. If you follow the other good advice on this thread it may help but I suspect you may be waiting a while like the rest of us. In the mean time ST is fine and you can probably get away with it too with a 4090. 
 

half your luck. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Willie Nelson

[Beau1969]

Hi all,

Given the stream and topic, I decided I will post my findings/suggestions after testing DCS in VR, on multi-thread (also compared to ST) over the past 3 weeks on a RazerBlade 14 (5900HX, 3080) laptop and the past two days on my home PC, 5800X and 3090 Ti. My biggest learning is that for complex missions (such as Blue Nosed Bastards by Reflected Simulations), RAM and VRAM are very critical to performance in VR and drive substantially the settings you use in DCS, and OpenXR (and in my case, Meta Quest Link.)

On both systems, I was able to get the campaign to be playable even on the most challenging (assets loaded, etc.) missions. I did all testing on the P-51D, which I understand is one of the more challenging aircraft for VR performance. My settings used for the laptop can be seen in my thread in the Bugs and Problem, Multi-thread forum posting(s). In short, they are moderately reduced from the settings on my desktop PC.

This is my main screen, you can see the version/multi-thread in the lower right. (first image)

These are the settings on my PC (24GB VRAM, 64GB RAM). (second image)

I am able to run the solo take-off training mission at 70-90 fps in VR and using BNB mission 3 (the one with many bombers) I am able to get between 30-60 fps throughout the mission; at start-up, in flight, when meeting bombers and in the dog fights that follow. The only stutter is down to 20 when the bombers drop their bombs and rarely when dog fighting in and around the bombers in the midst of the contrails. 

PS: although I have a background in systems and software, I have not programmed or designed systems in many, many years. My testing is empirical and based on a decade or so of VR testing (everything from the original Rift DK unit to my most recent meta quest pro.) I only picked up and started to learn the DCS aircraft this year, as previously I used VR to train for my real-world racing (pro-am level sportscar racing) using primarily iRacing. I have for years been able to tweak performance to the maximum possible given the hardware.

--

So, what did I find and what is my setup outside DCS? I am using the Meta Quest Pro, you may need to find the equivalent in your headset setup.

Tools required: Oculus/Meta Quest Link. Tools tested: Oculus Tray Tool (recommended), OpenXR Toolkit Companion App (Quickstart | OpenXR Toolkit (mbucchia.github.io))

In general, I do recommend the Companion App for testing but not once setup as its performance is good for training/testing but in asset-heavy missions, its performance is worse than not using it, even when using FSR/NIS/foveated rendering (which I think stress the CPU, so if you have the latest CPU it may not be a problem.)

The third image is my VR page in DCS. Note that one item I found to be very helpful is to bind VR hand/enable for left and right onto my HOTAS; it is on the UI Layer.

For those using Meta Quest Pro or 2, I recommend setting the highest refresh and resolution that you can use without screen distortions. At higher refresh rates I found that I could be GPU bound vs. CPU bound. Not sure exactly why that is, but possible because the CPU has to wait to push data. This shows up in the next setting as well. (fourth image)

I also use the Oculus Tray Tool (Oculus Tray Tool | ApollyonVR). Some have said that this is no longer necessary, but I did not find that to be the case. My settings for DCS and the link are in the fifth and sixth images. For the OTT, the most important setting for me was the Encode Resolution (3600) and the Encode Bitrate (600). For the DCS setting, I did not supersample and I turned ASW Off. The other settings did not matter as much. (fifth and sixth images)

For the OpenXR Toolkit Companion, I enabled it and within the game, I used NIS/FSR and foveated rendering. I did not use the post-processing features. In simple asset-light missions, I was able to get full fps (90) using a combination of NIS/FSR and foveated rendering. NIS seemed to work better from a stability perspective, FSR had better fps and visual performance. I used NIS as I have an Nvidia card and the performance was similar 'enough'. However, for the BNB campaign and other asset-heavy (likely multiplayer as well), I do not recommend using it as the performance is worse due to the CPU being bound more often. In missions 2 and mission 3 of the BNB campaign, the on-the-ground (during startup and takeoff) performance is substantially worse than not using it, 20 fps on the ground vs. 30-45. It was just below what I would consider a playable performance. I could get the aircraft into the air and afterward the performance was similar. What I do like about the tool is that it can add FPS to your view which is good for testing. So I recommend using it while you tweak settings and then disabling it via the menu when you move from testing to playing. (sixth image)

--

After literally weeks (in my spare time, I currently have two jobs with substantial travel) of testing, I thought this may be helpful to others. 

In short, for meta quest users, use meta link (required) and use Oculus Tray Tool. Set resolution and refresh rate as high as possible until you get visual artifacts (you will know when your have pushed beyond your PC capabilities). Set Encode Resolution and Bitrate also as high as possible until getting visual artifacts. Use the OpenXR companion app while testing. Note that in the Meta Link App, you will need to set Oculus as the default for OpenXR, under Settings, General. (last image)

With these settings and 30 level RTX cards or better, you should get reasonable (even good) performance from DCS.

I hope it helps,

csbeau.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Beau1969

[Beau1969]

Link to post in Bugs and Problem MT thread and settings for laptop referenced above.

 

[Beau1969]

Quick last post/suggestions.

Check your internet connection and speed at speedtest.net. It could help troubleshoot your connection if needed.

Check what starts up when you run your computer by pressing Cntl Alt Del (Windows) and going to the start-up tab. Disable all that you do not see as necessary, for me it is almost everything but hardware and cybersecurity-related. I personally think that there needs to be tighter control as to what software can add here and even now they get around this by starting services as well. You can see from my list that goes on much further how much I needed to disable (right click item and select disable.)

Again, hope it help.

csbeau

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Beau1969

[timcat]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:13 PM, Willie Nelson said:

Yep, you’re in good company. Stutters are a real problem for many of us attempting to use MT now. If you follow the other good advice on this thread it may help but I suspect you may be waiting a while like the rest of us. In the mean time ST is fine and you can probably get away with it too with a 4090. 

Yes sir, same here. I wouldn't waste a lot of time on troubleshooting. ED will have to fix this.

[darkman222]

Still wondering what you can do with mor Ram thou. I fpsVR I can see VRAM of the 4090 GPU maxed out almost all of the time. But 50 % its also the regular Ram maxed out.

So spend money on another 32 GB to make it 64 GB just for DCS?!

[DCoffey]

Sorry you guys are having trouble. I have an older i7-10700 and using a rtx3060ti with oculus 2, I have everything maxed except shadows and get a very smooth 72fps (I assume becuase I have the headset set at 72) but on marianas during campaigns it goes down to 36fps but still very smoothe. I seem to have had studders in the past when looking left then to the right and I followed someones advice to delete some cache folder which fixed the issue, Sorry I can't remember the folder. MT was a huge increase in fps for me.

[DishDoggie]

Windows 11 HP G2 VR NO STEAM DCS. Standalone DCS WorldBeta version

Sorry for the MAJOR POINT stuff lol 

 

IN VR First, I know nothing about why this is working but it is 90 FPS when I would only be getting 45 to 40 and 67 FPS when I would be getting 30 or 25 FPS. MAJOR points to do this my system is a Ryzen 9 3950x CPU 16 core 64g of system memand a AMD RT 6900 XT 16g mem.

 

Lets say System spec is understood BUT trying this can give you something maybe so try it.

 

I use a Program called Quick CPU to keep all cores unparked. It also can do power settings to High Performance Plus CPU boosting. This is point 1 Make sure your Cores are unparked and you have High Power settings

 

MAJOR POINT. 1.) OpenXR Toolkit Companion is set to TURBO MODE.

MAJOR POINT. 2.) OpenXR Toolkit Companion is set to Override Resolution YES

MAJOR POINT. 3.) Open XR Toolkit Companion is set to Display Resolution Per Eye 2160x 2115

 

MAJOR POINT. 4.) In DCS the SCREEN RESOLUTION is set to 2160x2160

tweak outputs to your liking but set the Screen Resolution as above just click in the window and type it in. This will equal a 1 to 1 screen window same resolution as the HP G2 Resolution. It may have little effect on performance but I recommend it.

 

MAJOR POINT. 5.) The OPEN XR DEVELOPER TOOLKIT for Windows Mixed reality MUST be SET as it is Shown. This is a Crazy part of the settings and I don't understand why this works. CUSTOM RENDER SCALE must be set to 190% for this to work for me. If it is at 100% I get BAD FPS 190% is the Golden Coin to this for ME. If it does not work for you tweak it up and down till it does.

 

You must understand if you have NVIDIA software or other software you use it can all effect how it works and If it works.

 

People have told me overwriting the Resolution and setting the Per Eye Resolution to 2160x2115 will cause distortion I DISAGREE in this manner it does NOT. If You skip this setting it will not work. 2160 x 2160 is the HP G2 Per Eye Resolution so OpemXR Toolkit Companion can get as close as it can but must be set to 2160x2115.

 

I told this to a guy with a PIMAX and he did it and it worked for him understanding he had software I do not and yes he had to tweak it play with it but it did work.

 

My DCS FPS overlay is now in the Yellow for CPU bottleneck and Stable as hell Flatlined Gameplay Backs this up.

Edited June 11, 2023 by DishDoggie

[MPK]

To the OP: I use a valve index and have the same experience. For me: the single threaded exe has average to bad frame rates and mild but annoying stuttering, and the multi threaded exe has excellent frame rates with horrifying stuttering, particularly the terrain which looks like it is rendering at 5fps. ED has gotten something very, very wrong with this implementation in terms of VR.

 

There is nothing we as players can do except go back to the old exe until ED sorts it out. Someone on Hoggit suggested that different parts of the scene are being sent to the video card at different rates which is causing all the problems, and as a result this might not be fixable until Vulcan is ready (in autumn 2037).