Newbie62 Posted June 10, 2023 Posted June 10, 2023 (edited) I have been trying to take out an SA-8 in the very first A-10C campaign mission using mavericks. The SA-8 doesn't always appear; seems that some enemy units are predefined, but air defense is randomized. When the SA-8 is there, I want to take it out even though the mission is just fly the waypoints! Learning exercise, if nothing else. Using the IR and TV mavs has been a dead end. They can't lock the SAM until you get way too close and are already being shot at. So I am trying to use an AGM-65L for this. I can get a good look at the SAM site using TGP from outside its range. But then it's go time... So what is happening... The TOF for the mav is surprisingly long, so I can't just keep heading towards the SAM to keep the laser on target. So after firing the missile, I'm trying to change course say 45 degrees off, enough to maintain separation but keep the SAM site in view of the TGP so it can keep laser designating. What I'm seeing is that even maintaining clear line of sight, the TGP degrades from POINT to INR-P. It seems like when that happens, the laser shuts off, and the maverick flies into the ground. For lack of a better way to express the question...what's up with that? Edited June 10, 2023 by Newbie62
jaylw314 Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Newbie62 said: I have been trying to take out an SA-8 in the very first A-10C campaign mission using mavericks. The SA-8 doesn't always appear; seems that some enemy units are predefined, but air defense is randomized. When the SA-8 is there, I want to take it out even though the mission is just fly the waypoints! Learning exercise, if nothing else. Using the IR and TV mavs has been a dead end. They can't lock the SAM until you get way too close and are already being shot at. So I am trying to use an AGM-65L for this. I can get a good look at the SAM site using TGP from outside its range. But then it's go time... So what is happening... The TOF for the mav is surprisingly long, so I can't just keep heading towards the SAM to keep the laser on target. So after firing the missile, I'm trying to change course say 45 degrees off, enough to maintain separation but keep the SAM site in view of the TGP so it can keep laser designating. What I'm seeing is that even maintaining clear line of sight, the TGP degrades from POINT to INR-P. It seems like when that happens, the laser shuts off, and the maverick flies into the ground. For lack of a better way to express the question...what's up with that? You're discovering the AGM-65L is not very useful for taking out taking out SA-8's FWIW, you should be able to get lock with AGM-65D's at 8-9 nm, well outside the SA-8's range. Also remember the SA-8 takes almost 30 seconds from detection to track to launch, so if you need to get close using terrain masking, you should have plenty of time to pop up, acquire, lock a Maverick, fire and hit the deck. Just don't try that against an SA-15
Yurgon Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Newbie62 said: For lack of a better way to express the question...what's up with that? POINT or AREA track going to INR P or INR A means the TGP is getting masked and goes from optical tracking to inertial tracking. Remember that the TGP is not just one camera but instead a whole bunch of sensors in the head of the TGP. Plus, there's a masking profile loaded into the TGP depending on the stores configuration. As far as I know, DCS simply uses the most prohibitive masking profile ("M4") regardless of actual loadout, so the TGP can become masked even when you still clearly see the object in question in the middle of the TGP display. When the laser can no longer fire because of masking, you should see the flashing "L" disappear from the TGP display, so always confirm that the "L" keeps flashing throughout the weapon's entire flight time during laser illumination. Other than that, I agree with what Jay said, the A-10 just isn't a SEAD asset, and any well designed mission should either allow you to terrain mask against SAM threats, or you should be part of a package with dedicated SEAD/DEAD assets with a window where you should be able to make your way to the target. If you're referring to the Georgian Hammer campaign, mission 1 is just sight seeing and familiarization, so no need to kill anything - though in this mission I've already been shot down while just following the flight plan, so it may not always play out as intended (or maybe the notion is "It's war, be ready for anything" ). Edited June 11, 2023 by Yurgon
Newbie62 Posted June 11, 2023 Author Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Yurgon said: so the TGP can become masked even when you still clearly see the object in question in the middle of the TGP display. Yes, exactly... I have it in point track and laser is on, but as I try to come off angle, even when the target is clearly visible and totally unmasked, it degrades to INR-P and the laser shuts off. It doesn't make sense, but I guess it is what it is... 5 hours ago, Yurgon said: When the laser can no longer fire because of masking, you should see the flashing "L" disappear from the TGP display Also yes, exactly. So I'm wondering if there's an off-angle limit, even if that limit is well within the TGP's angular range. That certainly seems to be the case, but I couldn't find it documented anywhere. It does fine with down angles, but not in azimuth. By empirical observation, it seems to be about 25, maybe 30 degrees. Not enough to achieve what I was trying to do - hold laser lock through the maverick's TOF while maintaining some separation. 13 hours ago, jaylw314 said: FWIW, you should be able to get lock with AGM-65D's at 8-9 nm, well outside the SA-8's range. I wish... Even in narrow field of view, the crosshair seems to just run over the target without locking until I'm approaching the DLZ minimum range. Even then, I have to keep moving the seeker over the target, or just past the target and let it run over the target repeatedly until it sometimes manages to lock. I've tried space stabilization (TMS left long), force lock (TMS fwd short), and force correlate (boat switch center; yes, I know that's not what it's for, I was grasping at straws) in various combinations, but when that does manage to get a lock, it seems to force a lock that isn't necessarily on the target. Just as close as I can get it given the seeker head's limited resolution even in narrow FOV, which usually seems to be a case of "close, but no cigar". Only when the maverick seeker gets its own lock does it result in a reliable kill. So I'm wondering what is the best way to go about it at range. I've read explanations and watched tutorials on youtube, but it just doesn't seem to want to work. Very frustrating... Edited June 11, 2023 by Newbie62
jaylw314 Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Newbie62 said: Yes, exactly... I have it in point track and laser is on, but as I try to come off angle, even when the target is clearly visible and totally unmasked, it degrades to INR-P and the laser shuts off. It doesn't make sense, but I guess it is what it is... Also yes, exactly. So I'm wondering if there's an off-angle limit, even if that limit is well within the TGP's angular range. That certainly seems to be the case, but I couldn't find it documented anywhere. It does fine with down angles, but not in azimuth. By empirical observation, it seems to be about 25, maybe 30 degrees. Not enough to achieve what I was trying to do - hold laser lock through the maverick's TOF while maintaining some separation. I wish... Even in narrow field of view, the crosshair seems to just run over the target without locking until I'm approaching the DLZ minimum range. Even then, I have to keep moving the seeker over the target, or just past the target and let it run over the target repeatedly until it sometimes manages to lock. I've tried space stabilization (TMS left long), force lock (TMS fwd short), and force correlate (boat switch center; yes, I know that's not what it's for, I was grasping at straws) in various combinations, but when that does manage to get a lock, it seems to force a lock that isn't necessarily on the target. Just as close as I can get it given the seeker head's limited resolution even in narrow FOV, which usually seems to be a case of "close, but no cigar". Only when the maverick seeker gets its own lock does it result in a reliable kill. So I'm wondering what is the best way to go about it at range. I've read explanations and watched tutorials on youtube, but it just doesn't seem to want to work. Very frustrating... I did some testing previously and came out with a completely non-visually helpful set of angles where the laser and/or camera is masked. Of note, TGP AREA/POINT video tracking and the laser have the same smaller FOV than the camera: I'm not sure specifically why you're having an issue locking the IR/TV Mavs at distance, although admittedly it does randomly seem to be difficult, presumably due to insufficient contrast with the environment. I'm also not sure what you meant when you were trying space stabilization, since TMS left long is unrelated (broadcast SPI). Gyro stabilization is DMS forward hold, and ground stabilization is TMS aft short. Edited June 11, 2023 by jaylw314
Newbie62 Posted June 12, 2023 Author Posted June 12, 2023 9 hours ago, jaylw314 said: I'm also not sure what you meant when you were trying space stabilization, since TMS left long is unrelated (broadcast SPI). Gyro stabilization is DMS forward hold, and ground stabilization is TMS aft short. Ahhh! I recently upgraded from A-10C to A-10C_2. Space stabilize was TMS left long in the earlier model. I have been updating my cheat sheets as I find differences. Noted. No wonder it didn't seem to do anything. I read in another forum post that ground stabilize is all but useless, since it relies on image consistency rather than spatial position. 9 hours ago, jaylw314 said: I'm not sure specifically why you're having an issue locking the IR/TV Mavs at distance, although admittedly it does randomly seem to be difficult, presumably due to insufficient contrast with the environment. What I've seen is that at distance, the target is just a speck in the maverick TV/IR view, even with narrow FOV. So as you said, insufficient contrast. It seems like until you can begin to resolve the shape of the target (meaning, getting close), it can't lock the target. 1
jaylw314 Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Newbie62 said: Ahhh! I recently upgraded from A-10C to A-10C_2. Space stabilize was TMS left long in the earlier model. I have been updating my cheat sheets as I find differences. Noted. No wonder it didn't seem to do anything. I read in another forum post that ground stabilize is all but useless, since it relies on image consistency rather than spatial position. What I've seen is that at distance, the target is just a speck in the maverick TV/IR view, even with narrow FOV. So as you said, insufficient contrast. It seems like until you can begin to resolve the shape of the target (meaning, getting close), it can't lock the target. Gyro-stabilize is reasonably useful, with DMS up hold. That seems to work like a snowplow mode. Ground stabilize doesn't make much sense since you can do the same slave-stabilizing from another sensor, and you'll rarely be using the Maverick as your primary sensor I double-checked a test mission in Syria, from low-level with an AGM-65D I was able to lock on and fire from about 7 nm. From 20,000', I was able to do so from about 10 nm. Edited June 12, 2023 by jaylw314
=52d= Skip Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 17 hours ago, Newbie62 said: I've read explanations and watched tutorials on youtube, but it just doesn't seem to want to work. Very frustrating... Maybe all you need is a little practice as both, the Laser and the IR Mav do work? Here´s what I did: Laser Mav - Use TGT Pod to find conveniently placed SA-8 - Make TGT Pod SOI - 10nm roll in on target - Fire Laser - TMS up to uncage Maverick - 9nm pickle - turn and keep target within 8nm IR Mav - Use TGT Pod to find SA-8 - Make TGT Pod SOI - 10nm roll in on target - Slave Mav to target - Zoom in Mav - TMS up to lock Maverick - 9nm pickle - turn and head home 1
Solution Newbie62 Posted June 12, 2023 Author Solution Posted June 12, 2023 5 hours ago, =52d= Skip said: Maybe all you need is a little practice Haha naturally...that's what I'm trying to do, but there's no point practicing a procedure that doesn't work. I notice in your video that before the cut transition at 0:30, you were in area track mode, and it kept popping out to INR-A. That's what I was seeing with POINT / INR-P, which seems to cause the laser to shut down. After the cut transition at 0:30, you were in INR mode, and the laser stayed on. So I tried that, but that turned out not to be the key - the mode would stay put, but if I went wings level once I was off angle, the laser would still shut off (L stops flashing). Masking by the outermost weapon pylon, which doesn't get rendered in the TGP display, maybe, leaving one wondering why the heck is it acting like it's getting masked? So taking a cue from your video, I held a little bank to keep showing the target a little belly, and behold! It worked! Then I tried it in POINT mode, and holding a little bank, that worked too! So that seems to be the key to holding lock for a laser maverick until impact, while maintaining separation from a SAM.
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