Add an AI-assisted aerial refueling for F14

[commo81]

Can someone please create an AI-based aerial re-fueling tutorial? I fly the F14 and I've tried numerous times to re-fuel and have no success. I've watched a dozen youtube videos and well that doesn't help either. It's becoming quite frustrating to where I just enable unlimited fuel in my settings. It would be nice to have a step-by-step tutorial where Jester guides you through approach and connecting to the basket. When I played Janes USAF years ago the personnel on the tanker would call out your speed and tell you 5 deg right or left etc and you'd generally be able to get refueled. All I hear from Jester is "a little left" or "right." Well how much is a little? I'm trying to find a fixed point on the tanker so I don't look at the basket. Right when you think you're going to connect the tanker makes a turn every time. furthermore I can't even find a group to join to get help.

Edited June 20, 2023 by commo81
added last sentence.

[Bosun]

I started another thread about the difficulty of the F14 in refueling. 

It is an arduous learning curve, but the Jester implementation is meant to mimic the kinds of calls a RIO would give you. Ultimately, the approach is up to the pilot. You should have line of sight on the basket, and Jester's calls on right or left are really just there for ambience, not really meant to be actual direction, as you should be able to see where you're at in relation to the basket.  I typically turn Jester off, because his calls get 'stacked' in a queue when you do a slow, steady approach, and after you've connected, he's still calling out directions as the stacked call queue runs through.  

The difficult part that I proposed revising is the bounding box of pre-contact.  The F14 has to approach close enough that the plane is forward, and inboard of the actual drogue in order to 'Clear Contact',  making it necessary to fall back and re-approach in order to contact the drogue, which risks pushing back outside the precontact box and having the crew retract the drogue on you. 


Some tips to help from my observations: 
1. Trim so that you are ever-so-slightly needing to notch the stick back, and nose up.  This allows faster and more accurate control of vertical alignment since you will only need to use the stick to adjust in one direction of the vertical and won't need to 'push' the stick in order to bring the alignment down.  I find it easier to hold attitude with a consistent stick pressure, albeit very light.  If I need to bring the nose up, I can 'tap' the stick back, and have the nose travel in a very shallow parabolic curve.  I can then use that curve to put the basket at the top of it, and when I get close, tap the stick and have the nose travel into the basket. Once contact is made, I can keep the stick ever so slightly tapped back with just pinky-pressure really, letting up on it when I need my vertical aligment to come back down.  The pinky-pressure becomes my baseline for holding attitude.  More baselines with your throttle below, as well.

2. Get into a formation with the tanker prior to calling for Pre-Contact.  Track your position relative to the fuselage of the tanker, and establish a 'Baseline' for your throttle to hold you there. 

3. From that baseline throttle positions, you can notch it up, or down, to come forward or fall back.  

4. Remember that notching your throttle is a three-step action.  You notch it forward, and wait as the engines take time to build speed in small increments. Then, bring the throttle a notch back below the baseline, to slow down to your baseline speed - and finally, notch the throttle back up, to your baseline to maintain that speed.   Each movement needs time for the aircraft to respond. 

The aircraft also needs time to respond to stick input, and trimming your nose so that there is a bias for you to 'push against' is very helpful - but make it very slight.  If you have rudder pedals - use the rudder to control your right/left alignment - don't use the ailerons. 

A lot of F14 pilots found it easier to approach the basket from slightly below, and upon getting just to it, notching aileron left to pitch the right-hand mounted probe up and into the basket, keeping it in the forward 1-oclock a-frame of the cockpit. 

Finally - many people swear by using 'Bomb Mode' wingsweep - however - that is a preference and at high altitudes or lower speeds, can actually making holding alignment more difficult. The benefit of it is causing your plane to have a higher AoA on approach, making your throttle inputs more responsive against a higher-drag profile approach.  I've achieved the same effect using the speed brake and keeping the wings out at 20 degrees.  Ultimately with practice you won't need bomb mode or the brake, once you get more proficient at throttle control.

Keep at it - you'll get it. It's definitely frustrating, and as my other post mentions, more frustrating when the tanker doesn't respond logically to your approaches.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Bosun

[MAXsenna]

@commo81 The F-14 is one of the hardest airframes for AAR. Have you tried or are successful in others you just need to keep at it. If not you might want to try an easier one until it clicks. I didn't find the F-14 particular hard, but the only reason for it was that I had a lot of practice and successes in other modules.

Cheers!

[commo81]

Sry for the delay  I work too much and play too little.....The F14 is the first aircraft I have tried refuelling on DCS. I'm not a hardcore player, just using T.flight hotas one and thrustmaster tfrp rudders. It would be nice to actually fly with someone for some coaching on it but can never find anyone. I can fly and hold my own but can't re-fuel to save my life. I don't use bomb mode as I feel that high altitude requires more lift since there's thinner air, so I prefer wings in the full out position. I can get my speed ok but after a few minutes of trying to inch it in there, I start doing that thing where I over-steer and then I may try a second time or just flat out give up and run a mission. If someone's willing to fly with me that would be great as it's pretty frustrating so I just use unlimited fuel at this point.

[draconus]

6 hours ago, commo81 said:

Sry for the delay  I work too much and play too little.....The F14 is the first aircraft I have tried refuelling on DCS. I'm not a hardcore player, just using T.flight hotas one and thrustmaster tfrp rudders. It would be nice to actually fly with someone for some coaching on it but can never find anyone. I can fly and hold my own but can't re-fuel to save my life. I don't use bomb mode as I feel that high altitude requires more lift since there's thinner air, so I prefer wings in the full out position. I can get my speed ok but after a few minutes of trying to inch it in there, I start doing that thing where I over-steer and then I may try a second time or just flat out give up and run a mission. If someone's willing to fly with me that would be great as it's pretty frustrating so I just use unlimited fuel at this point.

The stick you have is a cheap one and not very precise. I used to own one and couldn't AAR with it until I upgraded to T16000M. I heard from one guy who did it but it's hard, so don't sweat it if you can't.

The bomb mode (wings aft) is not for lowering lift but for more precise and gentle pitch control since the center of lift changes - so use it, it makes it easier. Wings auto AAR is next level skill.

Always make a steady straight approach to the basket with low closure. If in any moment you get into PIO - slow down, calm the flight and start again the process. Only small corrections are accepted.

Best scenario to learn is F-14B (b/c of more responsive throttle) NTTR refueling instant action mission. If you don't have it make one yourself: day, no wind, no turbulence, disable wake turbulence, KC-130 at around 250KIAS flying straight at 20k, wings in bomb mode. Good luck

PS. I don't think flying with someone will do anything for you in this regard. It's just precise flying formation skill training - muscle memory thing. You need steady straight flying aircraft to follow and that's it.

Edited August 3, 2023 by draconus

[commo81]

Thank you. I'll give it a try. I'm just an every day gamer so I bought the t.flight hotas one at the time as it was affordable and it works. I don't buy the cheapeast stuff but at the same time don't feel the need to spend a million dollars, I only do that on my boat to buy toys to take people tubing and fishing lol. I'll have to set up a mission for strictly AAR. Like I said, I usually use unlimited fuel, but it would be nice to have an idea how much fuel my wingman has, etc. 

[PorkinsFury]

I’ve shot down many tankers out of frustration learning to refuel in the f14. Youre not alone. It takes lots of practice to become proficient. Its going to be even more work with the stick you have but not necessarily impossible. Make sure you’ve adjusted your curves and deadzone though

[MAXsenna]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:25 PM, commo81 said:

Thank you. I'll give it a try. I'm just an every day gamer so I bought the t.flight hotas one at the time as it was affordable and it works. I don't buy the cheapeast stuff but at the same time don't feel the need to spend a million dollars, I only do that on my boat to buy toys to take people tubing and fishing lol. I'll have to set up a mission for strictly AAR. Like I said, I usually use unlimited fuel, but it would be nice to have an idea how much fuel my wingman has, etc. 

Do you have the Super Carrier? If yes, you have the Su-33, which is very very easy compared to the F-14. The F-18 is also very easy in comparison. 

Also make sure you sit comfortably, so you don't tense so much when frustrated. 

[commo81]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:47 PM, PorkinsFury said:

I’ve shot down many tankers out of frustration learning to refuel in the f14. Youre not alone. It takes lots of practice to become proficient. Its going to be even more work with the stick you have but not necessarily impossible. Make sure you’ve adjusted your curves and deadzone though

I did that. I just re-checked them tonight and modified them a bit more. Yes, I have super carrier. I try to make small corrections then when I think I might get it, the tanker decides to turn because the pilot hates me lol and it throws me all off. Check out the video of me....for better amusement. (I'm a stupid noob!) https://youtu.be/K4StA_fTO0I There is nothing for me to place on a reference onto the tanker and that's what's making it frustrating. I wish there was a key command to just automatically enter into autopilot to refuel.

 

I have the F15's but I'm having issues setting up my controls. I am trying to keep things semi-similar to the F14 but now need to add engine start somewhere, etc since it's not clickable like on the F14 in VR mode. I have issues remembering certain things and when things are clickable in the aircraft I can do that, but have a really hard time remembering what my bindings are on my joystick. Otherwise I would try the F15 or other aircraft at refuelling.

Edited August 13, 2023 by commo81

[SharpeXB]

Try flying a helicopter for a while. Then come back to AAR and it will be easy!

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, commo81 said:

I did that. I just re-checked them tonight and modified them a bit more. Yes, I have super carrier. I try to make small corrections then when I think I might get it, the tanker decides to turn because the pilot hates me lol and it throws me all off. Check out the video of me....for better amusement. (I'm a stupid noob!) https://youtu.be/K4StA_fTO0I There is nothing for me to place on a reference onto the tanker and that's what's making it frustrating. I wish there was a key command to just automatically enter into autopilot to refuel.

 

I have the F15's but I'm having issues setting up my controls. I am trying to keep things semi-similar to the F14 but now need to add engine start somewhere, etc since it's not clickable like on the F14 in VR mode. I have issues remembering certain things and when things are clickable in the aircraft I can do that, but have a really hard time remembering what my bindings are on my joystick. Otherwise I would try the F15 or other aircraft at refuelling.

 

Watched the video, It looks like you have too much nose up trim and you never really matched speeds with the tanker. Tomcat, being a non-FBW aircraft requires trimming to maintain level flight. My suggestion is to fly formation and try to maintain a very specific point off the tankers left wing until you have matched speed and adjusted your trim to neutral or very slightly nose up depending on what works best for you. Then maneuver to position trailing the tankers drogue and attempt a hookup. Increases or decreases of speed change the required trim settings because they change the center of lift of the wing either fore or aft. Once you are connected you must still be making minute changes with throttle, stick and trim because as you take on fuel, your aircraft will get heavier necessitating those changes. 

Being good at formation flying makes tanking so much easier. You should take every opportunity to practice tight formation flying. Good hardware makes precision flying a bit easier as well. Mediocre hardware is not a show stopper though, it just makes things a bit more difficult.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Vampyre

[MAXsenna]

@commo81

Well, if you do have the super carrier, you have the Su-33 your free. 

Start with that one, to learn AAR. Then the F-14 will be much easier. 

Also practice formation flying for 10 minutes a day, at least. That will get you there. 

[PorkinsFury]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:17 PM, commo81 said:

There is nothing for me to place on a reference onto the tanker and that's what's making it frustrating

I usually place the pod that the hose comes out of in the top of the hud window, maybe a little right of center, and concentrate on that.

Also, an easy way to get your trim right is put AP on altitude hold for a couple seconds while youre in left observation then turn it off. The jet will trim itself while in AP

[commo81]

I'll give it all a try thanks all. Just flew the apache last night it was like trying to learn it all over again. Pretty rough!