Disabling engine auto start in multiplayer

[Foka]

I would like to see possibility to disable use of engine auto start (Win+Home) on servers by
a) disabling that if game mode is off on server
or
b) additional checkbox in mission options.

[Exorcet]

33 minutes ago, Foka said:

I would like to see possibility to disable use of engine auto start (Win+Home) on servers by
a) disabling that if game mode is off on server

Game mode is gone. However this would be a terrible idea anyway, tying autostart to game mode.

[upyr1]

As long as it is optional and we have a start up check list on the knee pad I could support it. 

[SharpeXB]

I agree with the idea but it’s probably not possible to implement since players could just use their own key scripts. 
The game’s auto start feature could certainly be controlled though. 
Forcing manual or even cold starts has a good effect on the gameplay action and helps discourage the shoot ‘em up air quake gameplay style. If this is something the mission designer wanted I would be all in favor of that. 

[Dragon1-1]

41 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

As long as it is optional and we have a start up check list on the knee pad I could support it. 

You can already have it on a kneeboard, although of course it'd be nice to have it be official. For many aircraft they've already been made.

[upyr1]

21 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You can already have it on a kneeboard, although of course it'd be nice to have it be official. For many aircraft they've already been made.

I just think it should be official and standard 

[Exorcet]

27 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I just think it should be official and standard 

It really should be. ED makes the list in the first place, they have to update it as modules evolve, and the kneeboard isn't the most user friendly thing in the world anyway. Plus they ruined the much easier briefing screen by making it pause and still haven't reverted it or offered an option to revert the behavior.

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It really should be. ED makes the list in the first place, they have to update it as modules evolve, and the kneeboard isn't the most user friendly thing in the world anyway. Plus they ruined the much easier briefing screen by making it pause and still haven't reverted it or offered an option to revert the behavior.

Many times the checklists are wrong or not very well organized. You’re better off making your own, which is also a good way to learn it. 

[upyr1]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Many times the checklists are wrong or not very well organized. You’re better off making your own, which is also a good way to learn it. 

Ed and the other developers should know the proper start up procedures 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Ed and the other developers should know the proper start up procedures 

They should but they never seem to. I think every module I have, there’s always something missing. Or changes that don’t get updated. Or the cockpit flow is odd. You can always make a better list and use it as a tool to memorize the process. Then you don’t need the list. As a result you can do the manual start from memory faster and better than the auto cheat. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Weta43]

To the original post - wouldn't it make more sense to just have E.D. implement AutoStart in a way that it's no quicker than starting yourself ?

Perhaps they can't use the real list order from official documents because then it would look like they were using official documents & they can't be seen to be using classified data (which is why we can't link actual manuals on the forum)

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Weta43 said:

To the original post - wouldn't it make more sense to just have E.D. implement AutoStart in a way that it's no quicker than starting yourself ?

Perhaps they can't use the real list order from official documents because then it would look like they were using official documents & they can't be seen to be using classified data (which is why we can't link actual manuals on the forum)

Starting the aircraft isn’t classified. There’s nothing top secret about what an APU or a fuel pump does. 

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

They should but they never seem to. I think every module I have, there’s always something missing. Or changes that don’t get updated. Or the cockpit flow is odd. You can always make a better list and use it as a tool to memorize the process. Then you don’t need the list. As a result you can do the manual start from memory faster and better than the auto cheat. 

 

That's not how checklists work. You don't memorize the start up. You refer to the checklist always.

ED has the info, they should make the checklists and add to kneeboard, especially after breaking the simple briefing system that was good enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preflight_checklist

 

 

13 minutes ago, Weta43 said:

To the original post - wouldn't it make more sense to just have E.D. implement AutoStart in a way that it's no quicker than starting yourself ?

Perhaps they can't use the real list order from official documents because then it would look like they were using official documents & they can't be seen to be using classified data (which is why we can't link actual manuals on the forum)

This request doesn't make much sense in the first place really. Whether someone starts their plane or not doesn't change how they fly or the server environment. If people want it, whatever, it just won't make a difference.

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, Exorcet said:

That's not how checklists work. You don't memorize the start up. You refer to the checklist always.

A trained pilot can certainly do this from memory. In fact that’s part of the training. They need to do the whole preflight and start by memory. Yes they have a list but they don’t need it the way novice gamers do. 

7 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Whether someone starts their plane or not doesn't change how they fly or the server environment.

Oh absolutely it does. Have you played on one of the hot start servers? The ones which have crash barriers to prevent the dummies from taking off down the taxiways the airfield littered with flaming wrecks

[ARM505]

Checklists IRL for normal items are normally only used *after* the actions have been completed by the responsible crewmember (in a 'scan' or 'flow' style of moving through the cockpit), and only cover the absolute minimum safety critical items. This is airliner ops though, it may be totally different in different organisations (although given that there's a certain commonality in operating aircraft, especially when they come from the same company, it's getting pretty standardised)

For NNC's (Non-normal Checklists), they are done as a 'read and do' style.

And, personal opinion having seen the 'debates' (read: heated arguments) about what should and should not be in checklists, in what order items shoud appear, their 'certified document' type status and all that implies, and how they should be used, I think ED should stay pretty far away from them - it's MUCH more work than you think.

[Weta43]

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Starting the aircraft isn’t classified. There’s nothing top secret about what an APU or a fuel pump does. 

secret and classified are not the same thing.

There are flight manuals all over the internet for all kinds of aircraft, and you can compile an accurate startup check list from one of those.

While they are no longer "secret" many are still classified, and as a Russian owned company E.D. has to be particularly careful about avoiding classified data. I'm petty sure a couple of years ago an E.D. employee was detained and questioned for being in possession of a manual that was freely available on the internet.

Reproducing a checklist verbatim from a manual would imply that they had access to a manual, or that someone with access to what is still officially classified material had given them that data.

From their point of view it's probably simpler to just make up their own list that they know differs from SOP, but that works and isn't confusable with the 'official' list.

Or maybe you're right & they're just to lazy to copy and paste from official documentation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, Weta43 said:

secret and classified are not the same thing.

There are flight manuals all over the internet for all kinds of aircraft, and you can compile an accurate startup check list from one of those.

While they are no longer "secret" many are still classified, and as a Russian owned company E.D. has to be particularly careful about avoiding classified data. I'm petty sure a couple of years ago an E.D. employee was detained and questioned for being in possession of a manual that was freely available on the internet.

Reproducing a checklist verbatim from a manual would imply that they had access to a manual, or that someone with access to what is still officially classified material had given them that data.

From their point of view it's probably simpler to just make up their own list that they know differs from SOP, but that works and isn't confusable with the 'official' list.

Or maybe you're right & they're just to lazy to copy and paste from official documentation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The checklist for a P-47 isn’t classified. Btw the DCS one is missing the parking brake

Edited July 1, 2023 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:43 PM, Foka said:

I would like to see possibility to disable use of engine auto start (Win+Home) on servers

Why? 

More to the point: what is the positive intent behind this? Do you feel that you, as server owner should be able to dictate how your players are having fun? It's surely your right, but there are few surer ways to make your server unpopular than forcing your opinion on how to play DCS down other people's throats. I strongly advise against it.

Also, start-up procs are trivial to macro in tools like VoiceAttack and similar, so other than annoying some people and make them go away, little would be gained.

So what advantage do you think such a server option would bring to the table?

[cfrag]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

A trained pilot can certainly do this from memory.

I think we have been down that road before. Yes, real-world pilots do know most of their checklists by heart. They still wouldn't dream of ever starting up their aircraft without a checklist in hand or on-screen (in dual cockpits usually one calling out the item, the other repeating and affirming).

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

They need to do the whole preflight and start by memory.

How on earth do you do a pre-flight by memory? You look at NOTAMs and METAR/weather, assemble, file and verify flight plans during pre-flight, perhaps do your W&B. All that can't be done from memory. Someone must have pulled your leg on this one.

 

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

9 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Whether someone starts their plane or not doesn't change how they fly or the server environment.

Oh absolutely it does.

That is your assertion, and has been your assertion for some time. While there may be some correlation between reckless behavior on an airfield and procedural immaturity, that is far from causation. I know enough people who can cold-start their aircraft and then gleefully ram you just for the sake of it, and I know many people who can't cold-start their current aircraft, yet are some of the most considerate and observant people I know. I fully agree with @Exorcet: how someone starts their plane doesn't change how the behave. There will always be people who have a regrettably callous attitude towards other players. Not being able to cold-start an aircraft is not one way to identify them.

Edited July 1, 2023 by cfrag

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

How on earth do you do a pre-flight by memory?

I mean the walk around inspection. Check out this show on training Hornet pilots, that’s described here. Certainly part of their training is doing all of this from memory and getting scored on that  

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

They still wouldn't dream of ever starting up their aircraft without a checklist in hand or on-screen (in dual cockpits usually one calling out the item, the other repeating and affirming).

I don’t see any checklist here, that kneeboard is just some handwritten numbers. The Hornet has that confirming list on the MFD but that’s just the most critical items, not a list of every step. This guy is doing it a fast as possible with both hands. You can certainly be like this in the game although I’m not this fast because I only have one mouse
https://youtu.be/yeij-YX9MdY

The point being that DCS doesn’t need to put these right on the kneeboard in the game. There are many other options and one is not to use them at all. 

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

That is your assertion, and has been your assertion for some time.

Try some different servers and you’ll certainly notice the difference. I can’t think of a better way to shape behavior online and indeed that’s the whole point of mission settings. The whole reason why servers control the use of many other settings is to influence a desired play style, this fits right in that category. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Certainly part of their training is doing all of this from memory and getting scored on that

Of course it is. That kind of busy-work is used to put trainees under pressure, stress; the more the better. That doesn't mean that what they have to do/memorize or itemize is inherently required subject-wise, it's aimed at (and I believe the video mentions something like that) to ratchet up stress levels and help to separate the merely good from the best, to make sure they can function under intense pressure. I believe military calls it "drilling" (I'm not English-native, so I'm not sure what the correct term is, in German we say "schleifen" - to sharpen an edge). During my (non-aviation) military time I was required to memorize some silly stuff and was frequently quizzed on it for the same purpose: to induce stress and increase anxiety levels. It wasn't to impart systemic knowledge, that came in differently organized training units.

In the video you kindly provided, the trainees were quizzed on the red pages - emergency procedures. While I wasn't quizzed on them for my civil license, it was understood that that having memorized some of them would be a good idea - those that deal with loss of vision in the cockpit (smoke). Before taking off, pilots usually fold the checklist so that the red pages are outside, and store it in the quick-access slot. During check rides, the (civilian) instructor will notice if you fail to bring it out in a (simulated) emergency; it is expected that you use it (or it was for my CAA and JAA), or your score would be lowered. 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

This guy is doing it a fast as possible with both hands. You can certainly be like this in the game although I’m not this fast because I only have one mouse
https://youtu.be/yeij-YX9MdY

But that's the thing; there is no need to be fast in a routine start-up. This gentlemen was doing something he's done thousands of times before, and with his confidence and experience comes efficiency. He's not aiming for speed. That would make no sense to him. A pilot's mettle is not measured by how quickly they can start their aircraft. During start-up you have all the time in the world. It's how you handle the plane after it's become alive that matters: how precise you are on your times, turns, approaches, communication etc. Start-up and shut-down is leisure time.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I can’t think of a better way to shape behavior

While I believe that you are sincere, I also believe that to be your challenge. I can think of many other ways to shape behavior on my server, and many of them include talking to those who I feel have behaved in a way that I deem worthy of improvement.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The whole reason why servers control the use of many other settings is to influence a desired play style

I strongly disagree. In my mind, these server settings help to influence the mission flavor, which then can serve to pre-select those who frequent the server. It will never be useful to keep out those who conduct themselves reckless or worse. The server's ban list is for that.

[Foka]

11 hours ago, Weta43 said:

To the original post - wouldn't it make more sense to just have E.D. implement AutoStart in a way that it's no quicker than starting yourself ?

It's not about being (or rather not) quicker, but for some "milsim" communities to have option to control if user really learned proper cold start.

 

5 hours ago, cfrag said:

More to the point: what is the positive intent behind this? Do you feel that you, as server owner should be able to dictate how your players are having fun? It's surely your right, but there are few surer ways to make your server unpopular than forcing your opinion on how to play DCS down other people's throats. I strongly advise against it.

You assume in advance that every server is an open server and everyone is welcome. There are tons of closed servers for communities that play different way that on open servers, and that would like to have possibility to control that every one behaves according to the rules.
You don't need that. I got it.

But I'd like to see that option, and I'm not the only one. And I say again - an option. Don't like it don't use it.

[cfrag]

5 minutes ago, Foka said:

You assume in advance that every server is an open server and everyone is welcome.

Actually, I believe that every server can be as their owner would like it to be. I also believe that a server owner/admin who tries to impose their will on his/her players will be very lonely.

In DCS as in other games I think we should be able to establish some kind of trust towards those whom we play with: if we have an agreement not to use auto-start, we should trust each other not to use it. As a player, why should I care how my colleagues start their engines? Looking that way only lies conflict and disharmony. If I discover that one of my fellow player is dishonest, I disengage with them after I try to talk to them. 

I don't think that we would need a technical solution to an inherently social problem. But that, of course, is merely my opinion.

Edited July 1, 2023 by cfrag

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I also believe that a server owner/admin who tries to impose their will on his/her players will be very lonely.

I notice the most populated severs have cold starts. Perhaps this style of gameplay is more desired than you realize. I think most people want to play online within a certain style and not just a free for all. 

30 minutes ago, cfrag said:

But that's the thing; there is no need to be fast in a routine start-up.

I would think a combat scenario presents a need to be fast.

Edited July 1, 2023 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I notice the most populated severs have cold starts.

Yes. And auto-start. A good compromise IMHO

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I think a combat scenario presents a need to be fast.

Not for aircraft start-up. If you are under alert conditions (which usually precedes an actual conflict), you have aircraft on stand-by (started up when on really high alert) or on patrol. Start-ups are never rushed, and - as the Gulf war showed - as much as 50% of the combat-ready aircraft fail the start-up readiness check. You really don't want to rush that. 

Of course there are scenarios that we can dream up where you'll have to start up an aircraft as quickly as possible (like Clint Eastwood in Firefox where he attempts to steal the plane). Those will be the exception rather than the rule. Modern fighter combat deployments are usually planned days in advance. No need to rush the start-up.