Ideas to improve mods

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

ED doesn't need to know what all these files are in order for the filter to work

I don’t think you know how your own suggestion would even work. You’re trying to make the game a big mess for everyone else too. 

Never mind that in DCS there are only about a dozen servers with any players on them to chose from and none of them will be running mods. So there’s no point in such a filter. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think you know how your own suggestion would even work. You’re trying to make the game a big mess for everyone else too. 

Never mind that in DCS there are only about a dozen servers with any players on them to chose from and none of them will be running mods. So there’s no point in such a filter. 

 

I know how the filter would work, just becuse you are baffled by the concept of comparing lists doesn't make it advanced computer science. Whenever you build a mission that uses the WWII asset pack or a mod, it gets recorded in the mission file as you can see by these screenshots and these files are also listed in the DCS module manager.   which is the third screenshot with the sky background. All that Eagle would need to do is add a little bit of code to have the server record the required mods and asset pack and another bit of code for the client to compare and hide servers. The last few screenshots are all servers running mods which I marked in red something you said never happened. I didn't set these up I just loaded up multiplayer and started clicking random servers. F-22, F-16I, MiG-31, Su-30, and of course the A-4 DCS is ruined all the chaos of people using mods on servers I guess Eagle will have to file for bankruptcy I guess maybe there are people online who like to use mods 

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

All that Eagle would need to do is add a little bit of code

 I’d rather they spend their effort on more worthwhile things. You forget too that the files you’re trying to manage are a bunch of disorganized community made stuff that changes constantly or doesn’t get updated. It shouldn’t be ED’s task to manage all this. 
Trying to shoehorn mods into the online game would make a mess of it for everyone. All this topic does is make clear what a mess mods are and why they’re such a pain to deal with. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure, there’s only 13,000 mods for DCS. I’d rather they spend their effort on more worthwhile things. You forget too that the files you’re trying to manage are a bunch of disorganized community made stuff that changes constantly or doesn’t get updated. It shouldn’t be ED’s task to manage all this. 
Trying to shoehorn mods into the online game would make a mess of it for everyone. All this topic does is make clear what a mess mods are and why they’re such a pain to deal with. 

 

You are showing you don't understand the issue, just like the graphics wizard idea. the filter doesn't require Eagle to build a massive database of every possible mod. All that ED would need is to compare two lists that already exist and the technology could be used filter other things such as official asset packs.

Wether you like mods or not doesn't change the fact other people use them and a filter would enable you to ignore them.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

32 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

You are showing you don't understand the issue, just like the graphics wizard idea. the filter doesn't require Eagle to build a massive database of every possible mod. All that ED would need is to compare two lists that already exist and the technology could be used filter other things such as official asset packs.

Wether you like mods or not doesn't change the fact other people use them and a filter would enable you to ignore them.

If this is so easy let some modder make a mod to do it. 
And it would be the worst thing for every player to face the game junked up with silly mods when they try to go online. I don’t think anyone wants this. You hardly see any servers using mods because they just create a mess for players trying to get onto them.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

If this is so easy let some modder make a mod to do it. 
And it would be the worst thing for every player to face the game junked up with silly mods when they try to go online. I don’t think anyone wants this. You hardly see any servers using mods because they just create a mess for players trying to get onto them.

This is a really good argument for asking Eagle to add the filter, there are servers that use mods and there are people like yourself who have no desire to do so. If the filter is part of the DCS online menu then you will be able to hide any server you can't connect to due to lacking assets if the filter were a mod then the people who would benefit the most like yourself aren't going to use it.

 

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

This is a really good argument for asking Eagle to add the filter, there are servers that use mods and there are people like yourself who have no desire to do so. If the filter is part of the DCS online menu then you will be able to hide any server you can't connect to due to lacking assets if the filter were a mod then the people who would benefit the most like yourself aren't going to use it.

 

I doubt you’d find many populated servers using mods. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I doubt you’d find many populated servers using mods. 

 

If you download the mission they're using, and look at the mission lua, you'll find that the lines in "Required Modules" is deleted, many servers do this. I've been on a couple of them, and even ran a unit that did that with its server. The point the OP is trying to make is the same thing I tried to make a while back... make it better for these mods to be included.
For example, if you have a mod that adds the M1A2SEPv3, while you're setting the mod up you can have the base-game M1A2 take its place in the event someone connects who doesn't have the mod. Or if the mission has the Project Flanker Su30, the replacement model could be the base-game Su30, or the Su34. The same could be done for weapons, warships, infantry, you name it.

Right now, as the OP pointed out earlier, ED does not seem to have any real interest in expanding Naval Operations, or Ground Operations, which means that the Modders have to step-up and add the items that DCS is missing. I think the few items the OP brought up would be a good way for DCS to have the mods included, and if the files were uploaded to something that ED controls, all of the security concerns that some people have also go out the window.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

and if the files were uploaded to something that ED controls, all of the security concerns that some people have also go out the window.

What do you mean by “security concerns”? The mods themselves are already on an ED site under the User Files. 

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

For example, if you have a mod that adds the M1A2SEPv3, while you're setting the mod up you can have the base-game M1A2 take its place in the event someone connects who doesn't have the mod. Or if the mission has the Project Flanker Su30, the replacement model could be the base-game Su30, or the Su34. The same could be done for weapons, warships, infantry, you name it.

Obviously it isn’t reasonable to expect players online to have all these mods in order to join a server. That’s going to be true regardless of having some filter. 
That’s the whole problem with trying to use mods in multiplayer. 

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

ED does not seem to have any real interest in expanding Naval Operations, or Ground Operations

Actually they do. In that interview with Wags he talks about expanding into ground ops. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

5 hours ago, Tank50us said:

If you download the mission they're using, and look at the mission lua, you'll find that the lines in "Required Modules" is deleted, many servers do this. I've been on a couple of them, and even ran a unit that did that with its server. The point the OP is trying to make is the same thing I tried to make a while back... make it better for these mods to be included.
For example, if you have a mod that adds the M1A2SEPv3, while you're setting the mod up you can have the base-game M1A2 take its place in the event someone connects who doesn't have the mod. Or if the mission has the Project Flanker Su30, the replacement model could be the base-game Su30, or the Su34. The same could be done for weapons, warships, infantry, you name it.

The only problem I can see with the replacement idea is when there is no suitable replacement asset. For example I like 

That and the fact some people don't like mods is the reason I think a filter to hide servers with missing assets would be a good idea.

5 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Right now, as the OP pointed out earlier, ED does not seem to have any real interest in expanding Naval Operations, or Ground Operations, which means that the Modders have to step-up and add the items that DCS is missing. I think the few items the OP brought up would be a good way for DCS to have the mods included, and if the files were uploaded to something that ED controls, all of the security concerns that some people have also go out the window.

On the mod manager part I am thinking ovgm or some other existing tool might work.

[MAXsenna]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And it would be the worst thing for every player to face the game junked up with silly mods when they try to go online.

Hahhahaha

This is exactly what he's asking for! This would make life easier for people who DOESN'T use mods. 

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think anyone wants this.

What YOU THINK is not necessarily a fact. 

[MAXsenna]

33 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

On the mod manager part I am thinking ovgm or some other existing tool might work.

OvGME is "dead", but I'm sure the dev would be happy to implement good ideas into it's successor, Open Mod Manager.

I believe some of your ideas have merits. Especially the filter/replacement part. I do agree with some of @SharpeXB's points regarding the support from ED and a common repository, which could lead to potential problems for ED. 

I have said it before. An official launcher/Updater like Skatezilla's, with a mod manager that has support for CUSTOM repositories is the way to go. An included livery manager would be nice touch. 

Cheers! 

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

This is exactly what he's asking for! This would make life easier for people who DOESN'T use mods.

These ideas seem more like trying to popularize the use of mods online. 
 

9 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

What YOU THINK is not necessarily a fact. 

Check and see how many servers run mods right now. Hardly any. In the other CFS which has a mod mode or filter like is suggested, if you enable that you’ll see no servers. 

[MAXsenna]

These ideas seem more like trying to popularize the use of mods online. 

Yes, I agree to some degree with you. But @upyr1 clearly states why he'd like this. It's just a stop gap due to the lack of content. And it would be better for everyone to know which severs use mods or not.
As for an official mod manger. Of course mods would be more popular if there was a more user friendly way to install/uninstall them. Is this why you oppose this?

Check and see how many servers run mods right now. Hardly any. In the other CFS which has a mod mode or filter like is suggested, if you enable that you’ll see no servers. 

 That's true, but I THINK it's due to the un-userfriendly way users have to deal with mods. One just have to have a tiny peek into the mods section to see how POPULAR mods actually are. 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

What do you mean by “security concerns”? The mods themselves are already on an ED site under the User Files. 

Part of the necessary infrastructure is already in place. 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Obviously it isn’t reasonable to expect players online to have all these mods in order to join a server. That’s going to be true regardless of having some filter. 
That’s the whole problem with trying to use mods in multiplayer. 

This is why both a replacement and a filter have been requested. The filter would hide mods and asset packs you don't have and the replacement tag would allow you to connect and use a stand in. Sometimes replacements might be logical other times they might be stupid. 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Actually they do. In that interview with Wags he talks about expanding into ground ops.

The question is how long it will take for any given asset to appear in DCS. Which is part of the reason for the total replacement. One of the mods I have is an Iowa-class battleship. Now if we saw a 1980s Iowa-class battleship appear in DCS core you can bet I am deleting the mod.  Whether something is an AI asset or hi controlled official asset are better than mods but mods are better than nothing 

[upyr1]

25 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I believe some of your ideas have merits. Especially the filter/replacement part. I do agree with some of @SharpeXB's points regarding the support from ED and a common repository, which could lead to potential problems for ED. 

We already have the user files section which I figure could be an official repository 

[MAXsenna]

We already have the user files section which I figure could be an official repository 

I agree, it would be the best place, if they up the storage limitations. Like others have told you, copyright might be an issue. I have no idea how Steam deals with it.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

As for an official mod manger. Of course mods would be more popular if there was a more user friendly way to install/uninstall them. Is this why you oppose this?

Yeah I’m against anything that would make mods more popular

Seriously these things are a giant headache and I think no matter what is done most people are going to stay away from them for obvious reasons. Especially in multiplayer. I’m sure there are third party managing utilities that can make the mess a bit easier but they’re still a mess. 

19 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

the replacement tag would allow you to connect and use a stand in. Sometimes replacements might be logical other times they might be stupid. 

But nobody in their right mind is going to use this “replacement” feature. So there’s no point in having it. Nobody wants to fly against one aircraft masquerading as another. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. It’s just trying to shoehorn mods into the game. 

[upyr1]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah I’m against anything that would make mods more popular

Seriously these things are a giant headache and I think no matter what is done most people are going to stay away from them for obvious reasons. Especially in multiplayer. I’m sure there are third party managing utilities that can make the mess a bit easier but they’re still a mess

You don't have to use mods. I don't know what percentage of DCSers use mods but there are a lot out there. Which is why I say the filter would help you to avoid them.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

You don't have to use mods. I don't know what percentage of DCSers use mods but there are a lot out there. Which is why I say the filter would help you to avoid them.

A filter doesn’t change the reality that mods are a giant headache. Again look at the other sim with one. Nobody uses mods there online. 

[MAXsenna]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah I’m against anything that would make mods more popular

Well, thanks for being honest about it.

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Seriously these things are a giant headache and I think no matter what is done most people are going to stay away from them for obvious reasons.

Again YOU think. I THINK you're wrong. If it was a more user friendly way to install mods, they'd be even more popular, because they bring more enjoyment to the game. They do. And you sort of admit this, and it obviously scares you. 

I've seen you dabber more into helis now, and eventually predict you'll change your mind when it dawns on you how much the core game is missing. 

Your last paragraph I totally agree with, while I can't think of a better solution right now.

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A filter doesn’t change the reality that mods are a giant headache. Again look at the other sim with one. Nobody uses mods there online. 

For you it's a headache. For others they are a blessing. 

Why not try to be creative and come up with a solution that benefits all? A filter IS a good idea. You cannot possibly be against when you actually oppose mods? It will actually benefit you personally!

[upyr1]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah I’m against anything that would make mods more popular

Seriously these things are a giant headache and I think no matter what is done most people are going to stay away from them for obvious reasons. Especially in multiplayer. I’m sure there are third party managing utilities that can make the mess a bit easier but they’re still a mess. 

But nobody in their right mind is going to use this “replacement” feature. So there’s no point in having it. Nobody wants to fly against one aircraft masquerading as another. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. It’s just trying to shoehorn mods into the game. 

The replacement suggest the mask idea and the total replacement. The ridiculousness of the mask idea would all depend on what is being masked. For example an F-4E masquerading as an F-4G wouldn't matter that much. Then there is the total replacement which is intended for solo play the idea here is if you download a mission that uses mods you don't have you'll be asked for a replacement.  The point is so you can ignore modules 

[Slippa]

I don't see a problem with having a filter. An option to set on or off doesn't mean anyone has to have it set either way.

Quite obviously Sharpie would have all the mods installed and the filter set differently to others. I could be wrong? Difficult to gauge.

[upyr1]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A filter doesn’t change the reality that mods are a giant headache.

What would change is the you currently see servers with mods and asset packs you don't have and with the filter you won't.

Edited August 17, 2023 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

because they bring more enjoyment to the game.

There’s nothing mods do that’s worth the pain of dealing with them. Seriously. Why does it matter that DCS doesn’t have a certain ship in it if that means having your game crash or the frame rate drop to single digits or other crazy problems? It’s not worth it. It’s not worth spending more time screwing around with the game than you do playing it. 

15 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

you'll change your mind when it dawns on you how much the core game is missing. 

Yeah DCS is always going to be missing things. So what? Again it’s not worth dealing with mods. There’s enough content in DCS right now I’ll never run out of things to do. I don’t need any extra modules or features in them. It’s just a game. It can never have every aircraft or vehicle or feature in it.