Edit hornet trim sensitivity

[mahany]

Hello Guys,

Whenever I trim using my joystick's Hat switch with a very quick and small button press, the plane changes the pitch or roll violently.

I tried to modify the default hornet trim input value in default.lua files and decrease it to lower than 1.0 per button press, but unfortunately the trim completely stops if set to anything but 1.0. I've tried 0.5 & 0.3 but nothing works.

I modified the below files.

\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\FA-18C\Input\FA-18C\keyboard\default.lua

\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\FA-18C\Input\FA-18C\joystick\default.lua

 

These are the lines I modified.

{	pressed = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_DOWN,		up = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_DOWN,				cockpit_device_id = devices.HOTAS,	value_pressed =  0.5,	value_up = 0.0,	name = _('Trimmer Switch - PUSH(DESCEND)'),								category = {_('Stick'), _('Flight Control'), _('HOTAS')}},
{	pressed = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_UP,			up = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_UP,				cockpit_device_id = devices.HOTAS,	value_pressed =  0.5,	value_up = 0.0,	name = _('Trimmer Switch - PULL(CLIMB)'),								category = {_('Stick'), _('Flight Control'), _('HOTAS')}},
{	pressed = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_LEFT,		up = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_LEFT,				cockpit_device_id = devices.HOTAS,	value_pressed =  0.5,	value_up = 0.0,	name = _('Trimmer Switch - LEFT WING DOWN'),							category = {_('Stick'), _('Flight Control'), _('HOTAS')}},
{	pressed = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_RIGHT,		up = hotas_commands.STICK_TRIMMER_RIGHT,			cockpit_device_id = devices.HOTAS,	value_pressed =  0.5,	value_up = 0.0,	name = _('Trimmer Switch - RIGHT WING DOWN'),							category = {_('Stick'), _('Flight Control'), _('HOTAS')}},

 

I appreciate if someone can help me decreasing the trim sensitivity or how to properly modify the default.lua files to make the new trim values are working. 

[Tholozor]

Keep in mind the trim switch in the Hornet behaves differently depending on how the aircraft is configured.

In landing configuration, the trim switch up/down adjusts FCS target AoA.

In normal, flaps AUTO flight, the trim switch up/down commands target G.

Also ensure all autopilot modes are disengaged with the paddle switch, as violent oscillations can occur if attempting to trim with a specific autopilot or CSS relief mode engaged.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Tholozor

[mahany]

The problem is that I have very hard time trimming for formation flying or AAR where I need to trim up or down just a tiny bit. In my case one trim press, and the plane goes wild.

[MAXsenna]

The problem is that I have very hard time trimming for formation flying or AAR where I need to trim up or down just a tiny bit. In my case one trim press, and the plane goes wild.

It's an FBW aircraft that trims itself for 1G, like the F-16 and Mirage 2K. I never trim any of them when doing AAR. Seems something else is wrong if you need to trim it. Even the F-15E needs no trim after you've trimmed it back to 1G after takeoff.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[ruxtmp]

I have yet to figure out how to trim to 1G, the plane always is climbing or diving with a flight stick. Using a gaming mouse is so much easier to be precise with so that is what I have been using now. 

[Raisuli]

23 minutes ago, ruxtmp said:

I have yet to figure out how to trim to 1G, the plane always is climbing or diving with a flight stick. Using a gaming mouse is so much easier to be precise with so that is what I have been using now. 

This makes me wonder if your stick is centered.  Try calibrating the beast; if your OEM has a utility great, otherwise try the Windoze calibration.

<edit>

Or noisy...that will do it also...

</edit>

Edited August 20, 2023 by Raisuli

[mahany]

So let me explain what always happens with me on AAR.

Most of the time I'm approaching the tanker with and everything stable except for that I need to gain a tiny bit of altitude to be in line with the basket and the tanker reference point. At this moment I usually do either of the following:

01- Increase power to gain altitude (while still working the throttle levers), and suddenly the plane want pitches up, I immediately apply small pitch down with the stick and suddenly we start playing the wobble game. I end up stepping away from the tanker and re-initiate the formation flying and approaching the basket again.

02 - Instead of increasing the power, I try to pitch up with the stick, or trim up. Any of these will result in overcorrecting and will end up fighting with pitch up and down chaos until I make it stable again.

I have Winwing Orion hotas with pitch and roll DeadZone at 4, and 20% Curves. 

Btw, flipping the FCS switch to Override instead of Normal made fine stick adjustments much better but not as what I see on YouTube videos.

[Tholozor]

1 hour ago, mahany said:

So let me explain what always happens with me on AAR.

Most of the time I'm approaching the tanker with and everything stable except for that I need to gain a tiny bit of altitude to be in line with the basket and the tanker reference point. At this moment I usually do either of the following:

01- Increase power to gain altitude (while still working the throttle levers), and suddenly the plane want pitches up, I immediately apply small pitch down with the stick and suddenly we start playing the wobble game. I end up stepping away from the tanker and re-initiate the formation flying and approaching the basket again.

02 - Instead of increasing the power, I try to pitch up with the stick, or trim up. Any of these will result in overcorrecting and will end up fighting with pitch up and down chaos until I make it stable again.

I have Winwing Orion hotas with pitch and roll DeadZone at 4, and 20% Curves. 

Btw, flipping the FCS switch to Override instead of Normal made fine stick adjustments much better but not as what I see on YouTube videos.

Sounds like you may need to keep adjusting your curves. This looks like a classic case of PIO (don't ever chase the basket, if you miss contact on the first push, just back up and go again). Trying to use pitch trim during normal flight will generally have you fighting the FCS all day long.

[Tom Kazansky]

3 hours ago, mahany said:

...I need to gain a tiny bit of altitude to be in line with the basket and the tanker reference point. At this moment I usually do either of the following:

01- Increase power to gain altitude (while still working the throttle levers), and suddenly the plane want pitches up

This seems odd and is never needed in "my" Hornet. Increasing power only adds a rate of climb in landing configuration. But in normal/auto-flaps config the Hornet will keep 1g even with more power, so it won't climb.

In an AAR situation, how much power do you add? I mean you have to closely match the speed of the tanker. Imho there is not much range for a power shift to gain altitude.

Maybe a track replay could be helpful?

[MAXsenna]

Not what happens to me. Have a Warthog, no curves. Mind you I have 2x20cm extensions, so a tiny correction is tiny, even when I have reduced the possible physical deflection and recalibrated the very precise sensor on a wobbly non-gimbal. (When you add very long extension on a Warthog, you are in for a funny ride in discovering some very serious design flaws that should never have happened).

Tanking from a Viking, I put the tank on the top right corner of the HUD or just "follow" the hose with the HUD. And sort of aim with the little cross, have no idea what it is for, into the center of the basket, (works every time), and pull back on the throttles when I connect. The Hornet is one of the easier airframes to tank, apart from the power acceleration that always takes me a little off guard of I haven't done it in a while.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Raisuli]

6 hours ago, mahany said:

So let me explain what always happens with me on AAR.

Most of the time I'm approaching the tanker with and everything stable except for that I need to gain a tiny bit of altitude to be in line with the basket and the tanker reference point. At this moment I usually do either of the following:

01- Increase power to gain altitude (while still working the throttle levers), and suddenly the plane want pitches up, I immediately apply small pitch down with the stick and suddenly we start playing the wobble game. I end up stepping away from the tanker and re-initiate the formation flying and approaching the basket again.

02 - Instead of increasing the power, I try to pitch up with the stick, or trim up. Any of these will result in overcorrecting and will end up fighting with pitch up and down chaos until I make it stable again.

I have Winwing Orion hotas with pitch and roll DeadZone at 4, and 20% Curves. 

Btw, flipping the FCS switch to Override instead of Normal made fine stick adjustments much better but not as what I see on YouTube videos.

Executive Summary (lots of words here): Calm head and silk hands.  You have to get ahead of the aircraft, and that means nulling your input before the plane has time to react in some cases.  If you wait until the nose is where you want it's already too late...

 

I've got a long and extensive relationship with your AAR problems.  Thousands of kilometers traversed, numerous KC-135s have had catastrophic wing spar failures due to the repetitive pitch inputs by the pilot.  Many long track files of a dead-on steady basket right up until I'm a plane length or two away, then suddenly aerodynamic forces, combined with cosmic rays and intervention by space aliens, set it on a wild ride.  Probes centimeters from drogues yet unable to connect.

It was all me.  Including the bit about needing to 'gain a little bit of altitude' and suddenly wobbles happen.  I tried trimming, I tried throttle (not really; you use throttle for pitch on landing).  I tried using auto-pilot to keep things more steady.  Every bit of that was me induced oscillation.  I still fight with it, and (worse) still cross control (apply roll while trying to adjust pitch and vice versa).

It took a few days of nothing but hours of AAR with no wind, zero dead zone and 20 curves to get to the point where I can say confidently I'm going to hit the basket.  It might take a couple tries, it might not be pretty, but it will get done.  I'm still learning; every hop I launch, tank, do a long formation flight with an AI lead, tank, then land.  Or launch, tank, dump, tank, dump, tank...  I'm down to 15 curves (trying to ween myself) and can still hit a tanker in a turn with a bit of wind dialed in.  It's not always pretty; the cross controlling bites me still.  PIO bites me still.  I can go from <2000 to three bags full in one go, though, so I'm getting there.

For what (little) it's worth, the KC-130 is the easiest tanker for me to hit, but I can do all four now.  I do like how the KC-130 calls 'break away' just as I'm about to hit the basked, or how the Il-78 voice sound eerily familiar...

[mahany]

6 hours ago, Raisuli said:

Executive Summary (lots of words here): Calm head and silk hands.  You have to get ahead of the aircraft, and that means nulling your input before the plane has time to react in some cases.  If you wait until the nose is where you want it's already too late...

 

I've got a long and extensive relationship with your AAR problems.  Thousands of kilometers traversed, numerous KC-135s have had catastrophic wing spar failures due to the repetitive pitch inputs by the pilot.  Many long track files of a dead-on steady basket right up until I'm a plane length or two away, then suddenly aerodynamic forces, combined with cosmic rays and intervention by space aliens, set it on a wild ride.  Probes centimeters from drogues yet unable to connect.

It was all me.  Including the bit about needing to 'gain a little bit of altitude' and suddenly wobbles happen.  I tried trimming, I tried throttle (not really; you use throttle for pitch on landing).  I tried using auto-pilot to keep things more steady.  Every bit of that was me induced oscillation.  I still fight with it, and (worse) still cross control (apply roll while trying to adjust pitch and vice versa).

It took a few days of nothing but hours of AAR with no wind, zero dead zone and 20 curves to get to the point where I can say confidently I'm going to hit the basket.  It might take a couple tries, it might not be pretty, but it will get done.  I'm still learning; every hop I launch, tank, do a long formation flight with an AI lead, tank, then land.  Or launch, tank, dump, tank, dump, tank...  I'm down to 15 curves (trying to ween myself) and can still hit a tanker in a turn with a bit of wind dialed in.  It's not always pretty; the cross controlling bites me still.  PIO bites me still.  I can go from <2000 to three bags full in one go, though, so I'm getting there.

For what (little) it's worth, the KC-130 is the easiest tanker for me to hit, but I can do all four now.  I do like how the KC-130 calls 'break away' just as I'm about to hit the basked, or how the Il-78 voice sound eerily familiar...

Thanks buddy, that is pretty much where I struggle right now 

I guess I need to spend more time with AAR and the hornet in general.  

[tityus]

Hi Mahany,

I know you have received a lot of info already, but I`ll be concise and add my POV.  If your controls are well centered and there are no spikes, use a ZERO dead zone. Your Dead zone 4 combined with 20% curves will increase the PIO and make AAR much harder. 

If you have time try this:

• set your dead zone to ZERO
• do not use trim switch for AAR

... once the basket is extended and you're in position for the AAR: set your speed 2-4 kt higher than the tanker`s and work only the stick (really small movements). After connection work the throttle.
 

and, of course, post your impressions here. I do believe you will perceive the task as more amicable and the problem you described will be in the past.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by tityus

[Tom Kazansky]

On 8/20/2023 at 8:28 AM, Tom Kazansky said:

...Increasing power only adds a rate of climb in landing configuration. But in normal/auto-flaps config the Hornet will keep 1g even with more power, so it won't climb.

In an AAR situation, how much power do you add? I mean you have to closely match the speed of the tanker. Imho there is not much range for a power shift to gain altitude.

Maybe a track replay could be helpful?

I need to correct my own post: After testing, the Hornet does climb/decent even in auto flaps configuration by increasing/reducing thrust. But just a little bit. (Maybe enough to get oscillation when you are not used to it).

The rest of my post still stands: there is not much room in an AAR situation for VVI adjustments by power.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Tom Kazansky

[mahany]

Thank you so much everyone for the tips. I will start a long AAR session today and tell you how did it go.

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, mahany said:

Thank you so much everyone for the tips. I will start a long AAR session today and tell you how did it go.

I learned AAR on the Syria map, no clouds, no wind.  The tanker air-started at Ramat David at 25,000 feet and ~300 knots and turned in Turkey.  The north-south ish heading also meant no sun in my eyes. 

The good news is there is no geopolitics on my maps so no concerns about airspace or twitchy neighbors.  Put some music that helps relax you at low level in the background, because if you're anything like me once frustration starts to set in you get tense...

Then take breaks.  Once in a while my breaks were measured in days, but that helps, too.  When you get too frustrated go do something fun.  I read history books starting ~600 AD of the area I was flying over.  That stuff is just nuts, but it's also amazing what happened in all those little towns you've been overflying...

<edit>

I seem to recall turning wake turbulence off for a little while.  I think the first time I heard "Transfer complete" was when there was no turbulence.  I turned it back on right after that because I didn't want to get used to it.

</edit>

Edited August 21, 2023 by Raisuli

[mahany]

I want to thank every single one of you for the help and tips.
I managed to do 3 successful attempts, two of them were without disconnections. The tanker was S-3B with Wake Turbulence enabled.

Here are key points or things that made huge difference in my experience.

• Understand how trim works. I just need to hold the jet level for it to auto trim itself and there is no need to touch the trim button.
• Approach the tanker with about two knots faster until connection, then I start working the throttle.
• I found that I was afraid of fighting the stick to remain stable on basket approach xD. For the first time I felt like I have control on the jet and I'm forcing it to remain stable until connection. Just very small stick movements to fix the pitch overshooting that happens whenever I panic.

I will take a few hours break and do it again.

[MAXsenna]

@mahany
Excellent! Well done!

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[Jeb]

my AAR delema went away after I stopped looking at the basket, now I look at the  buddy store on the top of the hud just to the right of center and drive in at 2-3 kts. I dont even look at the basket at all untill i am connected and settled down a bit. If I do look at the basket I am all over the place and just shoot the tanker down with a gun, 

[tityus]

Did you change your dead zone to zero?
If not, try it.

[mahany]

17 hours ago, tityus said:

Did you change your dead zone to zero?
If not, try it.

Yeah I completely removed the deadzone and increased the curve to 22%

[ruxtmp]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:12 PM, Raisuli said:

This makes me wonder if your stick is centered.  Try calibrating the beast; if your OEM has a utility great, otherwise try the Windoze calibration.

<edit>

Or noisy...that will do it also...

</edit>

 

It is centered as is neither out of calibration or noisy. Windows and numerous other tools showed the winwing flight stick rock solid. I tried a thrustmaster and saitek as well. They all fly the same. I even install super heavy springs to the point I was getting a workout just flying. Curves and deadbands did nothing to help.  I never knew when the controls would jump due to the curve or become active with the deadband. About the only plane this was not as big an issue with was the Harrier. At this point I fly so well with a mouse I doubt I would try a stick again.

[MAXsenna]

It is centered as is neither out of calibration or noisy. Windows and numerous other tools showed the winwing flight stick rock solid. I tried a thrustmaster and saitek as well. They all fly the same. I even install super heavy springs to the point I was getting a workout just flying. Curves and deadbands did nothing to help.  I never knew when the controls would jump due to the curve or become active with the deadband. About the only plane this was not as big an issue with was the Harrier. At this point I fly so well with a mouse I doubt I would try a stick again.

Are you sure you see what you expect? I have none of your issues in any module, while a never use curves of deadzones either.
Haven't flown with a mouse since BH1942 and BoB, but I remember it as much more presise and easier than a joystick.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[ruxtmp]

9 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Are you sure you see what you expect? I have none of your issues in any module, while a never use curves of deadzones either.
Haven't flown with a mouse since BH1942 and BoB, but I remember it as much more presise and easier than a joystick.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

As you said the mouse is many times more precise I can make minute adjustments with ease. AAR are a piece of cake using the mouse. What I am expecting (not sure if its a realistic expectation) is that if I let go of the stick and stop providing any inputs a trimmed out plane will remain in a somewhat stable flight for at least a few seconds with no turbulence or winds in the wx settings. Right now with the plane in autopilot and flying level with set airspeed disengaging the autopilot I typically see an immediate +/- vertical velocity of anywhere from 30-300fpm with 1.0g showing in the HUD and with a stick showing centered and no noise. This is less pronounced with a mouse and I can easily adjust for the any +/- of 10-30fpm over a few seconds. With a stick it is a constant fight to maintain level flight without bouncing up and down 10-20 feet constantly.

[MAXsenna]

@ruxtmp
What can I say. The Hornet is super stable for me. To be honest I don't even know how to turn on the autopilot.

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